From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Mon Dec 19 08:54:23 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Mon Dec 19 08:54:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <001301ccbdbe$d902ff70$8b08fe50$@yahoo.co.nz> Well, it seems to me that the system in place is there so that if the majority rule and as you put it "requires an enormous amount of unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade" is established, then it can be done. I see removing the most senior manager or their deputy of a brigade a serious and weighty objective, and therefore, should " requires an enormous amount of unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade" ........ the fact that "The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous waste of volunteer hours" is because of this seriousness. I think it is all down to perspective and intent. If the CFO is running their brigade efficient and effectively, there isnot an issue, and no, it wont be easy to remove him/her and why should it be? If there is a serious issue, and there is "an enormous amount of unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade" then there is an ability to remove the manager. At one point in time, being "appointed" as a CFO/DCFO meant a lot. It meant the person appointed had the skills, ability, experience and know how along with everything else. He/she was appointed because the senior NZFS commanders thought he/she was the best candidate. Making it a 5 year term only waters down the position (in my view), and allows personalities to come into it. If the CFO/DCFO is not up to it, then simply use the management committee to do something about it. I know it seems like a lot of hard work and time, but the fact of the matter is, it isnot a small step to remove a senior manager and why should it be so? I do see a bigger picture here though. 5 year terms for CFO/DCFO New 'Rules of Association' CFO and/or Chair can be different people CFO/DCFO can be non-members of the brigade Mike Hall's attempt to remove the rank of CFO/DCFO a while back Mike Hall's statement 'should only be one CFO in the NZFS and that's me' Maybe it is time that the CFO rank disappeared, like composite stations, have an SSO in charge. Oppps, that would only be a name change then, the role would be the same. My bad..... I don't know really, I guess time will tell, and there is nothing wrong with keeping it all dynamic either Tony. Great discussion point though :) -----Original Message----- From: Tony Sutorius [mailto:tony@sutorius.org] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 10:33 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO On 18/12/2011 3:25 p.m., Adam Knezovic wrote: > Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a > course of action that you can take. > Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous waste of volunteer hours. There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared through these dramas... I can easily see how. But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure for a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business needs to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders underway. That's how it should be, surely? T. From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Dec 19 09:48:53 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Dec 19 09:49:20 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, , <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, , <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance assessments annually based on something called Success Factors? I can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will spill out multiple instances of non performance? So is it fair if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his career counterparts aren't either? As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as they could have before now and haven't? Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > one being developed. > > Shaun > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > never see the AM's > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > be available for issues that may arise. > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Simon, > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > >> going ahead. > > >> > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > >> > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > >> good. > > >> > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > >> > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > position. > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > rather > > >> addictive. > > >> > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > to > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > >> > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > form > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > >> > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > recognise > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > >> > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > >> > > >> Tony Sutorius > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Mon Dec 19 10:02:18 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Mon Dec 19 10:02:46 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <1BD5D676-BF4B-4F74-9474-E3CB012FFF2B@trainforsafety.co.nz> Like your thoughts Sent from my iPhone On 19/12/2011, at 9:48 AM, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance assessments annually based on something called Success Factors? I can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will spill out multiple instances of non performance? So is it fair if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his career counterparts aren't either? > As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as they could have before now and haven't? > Ian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. > And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > > >> From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: >> >> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO >> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey >> (confidential??) which matches KPIs >> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until >> performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job >> - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? >> >> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO >> one being developed. >> >> Shaun >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders >> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing >> their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot >> of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the >> chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the >> plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we >> never see the AM's >> An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure >> the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is >> appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that >> enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job >> of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be >> involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and >> be available for issues that may arise. >> This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new >> policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt >> make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does >> the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' >> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? >> >> There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. >> >> >>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 >>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Simon, >>> >>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue >>> has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong >>> kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to >>> leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a >>> public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule >>> change out of the way first in case that got derailed. >>> >>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS >>> LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders >>> chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than >>> the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of >>> five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated >>> to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond >>> accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service >>> command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. >>> >>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that >>> recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the >>> simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing >>> the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor >>> oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all >>> politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their >>> actions, regardless of their words! >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Excellently opined Tony, >>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. >>>> >>>> Simon East >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >>>> To: "VollyNet" >>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>> >>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and >>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally >>>>> going ahead. >>>>> >>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >>>>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, >>>>> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. >>>>> >>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, >>>>> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend >>>>> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local >>>>> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're >>>>> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels >>>>> good. >>>>> >>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often >>>>> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing >>>>> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this >>>>> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves >>>>> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own >>>>> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades >>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since >>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't >>>>> need much self-scrutiny. >>>>> >>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in >>>>> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and >> position. >>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. >>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within >>>>> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and >> rather >>>>> addictive. >>>>> >>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw >> to >>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and >>>>> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively >>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's >>>>> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying >>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this >>>>> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated >> form >>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>>>> >>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to >> recognise >>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >>>>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >>>>> >>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >>>>> >>>>> Tony Sutorius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: >>>> 09/09/10 18:34:00 >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 19 10:03:49 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Mon Dec 19 10:04:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, ,,<4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, ,,<219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , , , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz>, , Message-ID: Straight forward questions Ian, deserve straight forward answers; See below > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:48:53 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance assessments annually based on something called Success Factors? Yes I am, but if the brigades never see the person who tick such boxes, how can a true assessment be made as to whether or not they are being satisfied..? I can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will spill out multiple instances of non performance? Me either. So is it fair if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his career counterparts aren't either? No, makes me question whether the process will actually be worked. will require more work from AM's (or maybe after people are losing their jobs, the newly created 'RM Assist' could do this part) > As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as they could have before now and haven't? Not confident. > Ian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. > And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > > > > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > > one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the > > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > > never see the AM's > > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job > > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > > be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt > > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does > > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > > >> going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > > >> good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 19 10:08:15 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Mon Dec 19 10:08:29 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, , , , <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, , , , <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , , , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, ,,, , , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz>, , , , , Message-ID: Sorry guys. I did change the text to red but it hasn't come through for some reason.. ill try a different method. > From: tds_4@hotmail.com > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:03:49 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Straight forward questions Ian, deserve straight forward answers; > *See below* > > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:48:53 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance assessments annually based on something called Success Factors?* Yes I am, but if the brigades never see the person who tick such boxes, how can a true assessment be made as to whether or not they are being satisfied..?* I can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will spill out multiple instances of non performance? *Me either.* So is it fair if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his career counterparts aren't either? *No, makes me question whether the process will actually be worked. will require more work from AM's (or maybe after people are losing their jobs, the newly created 'RM Assist' could do this part)* > > As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as they could have before now and haven't? *Not confident.* > > Ian > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. > > And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > > > > > > > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > > > one being developed. > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > > > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > > > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the > > > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > > > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > > > never see the AM's > > > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > > > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > > > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job > > > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > > > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > > > be available for issues that may arise. > > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt > > > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does > > > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> Hi all, > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > > > >> going ahead. > > > > >> > > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > > > >> > > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > > > >> good. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > > position. > > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > > > rather > > > > >> addictive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > > > to > > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > > > form > > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > > >> > > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > > recognise > > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > > >> > > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > > >> > > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Dec 19 14:19:04 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Dec 19 14:19:34 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, , , <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, , , <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , , , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz>, , Message-ID: <29A60B3A1A864C63AE788FD48F3EEBD3@SN2938977271> One of the concerns I do have is the current relcutance of many people (other than all those posting on Vollynet who want to be CFO's) to "step up" into officers roles due to the paperwork requirements. This could make it worse if for non performance the CFO and or DCFO are removed, and there is no one willing to take on these roles. Brigade ends up with a power / command vacumn? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Straight forward questions Ian, deserve straight forward answers; See below > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:48:53 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance assessments annually based on something called Success Factors? Yes I am, but if the brigades never see the person who tick such boxes, how can a true assessment be made as to whether or not they are being satisfied..? I can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will spill out multiple instances of non performance? Me either. So is it fair if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his career counterparts aren't either? No, makes me question whether the process will actually be worked. will require more work from AM's (or maybe after people are losing their jobs, the newly created 'RM Assist' could do this part) > As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as they could have before now and haven't? Not confident. > Ian > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. > And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > > > > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > > one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the > > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > > never see the AM's > > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job > > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > > be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt > > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does > > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > > >> going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > > >> good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Mon Dec 19 14:22:34 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Mon Dec 19 14:22:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <29A60B3A1A864C63AE788FD48F3EEBD3@SN2938977271> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <29A60B3A1A864C63AE788FD48F3EEBD3@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Stepping up generally, not just to CFO/DCFO roles. I know of brigades that have no one between QFF and SO - guys to scared to embark upon courses etc. A harder man than I would tell them to harden the f#ck up - but as a diplomat I'll suggest that we need to help them come to terms with the requirements and to realize that the paperwork ain't all that hard really b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz>wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > One of the concerns I do have is the current relcutance of many people > (other than all those posting on Vollynet who want to be CFO's) to "step > up" into officers roles due to the paperwork requirements. This could make > it worse if for non performance the CFO and or DCFO are removed, and there > is no one willing to take on these roles. Brigade ends up with a power / > command vacumn? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 10:03 AM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Straight forward questions Ian, deserve straight forward answers; > See below > > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:48:53 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > As you would know Tristan the RM, AM and AAM currently have performance > assessments annually based on something called Success Factors? Yes I am, > but if the brigades never see the person who tick such boxes, how can a > true assessment be made as to whether or not they are being satisfied..? I > can't remember seeing any of them being removed for non performance, over > the last few years yet, if you talk to most career firefighters they will > spill out multiple instances of non performance? Me either. So is it fair > if a non performing vol CFO is removed for not" meeting KPI's' when his > career counterparts aren't either? No, makes me question whether the > process will actually be worked. will require more work from AM's (or maybe > after people are losing their jobs, the newly created 'RM Assist' could do > this part) > > As a volunteer CFO I do welcome this latest move. I am not scared of > the ramifications and feel I am performing okay. I know of several other > vol CFO's around who should be very scared though! These are the autocratic > ones, the ones that rule their brigades with an iron fist, the ones that > think their brigades are operationally competent then fight every structure > fire from outside, the ones that prohibit the recruiting of women into > their brigades, etc etc. However again will the organisation have the > kahuna's to remove them (as they are only volunteers doing their best) as > they could have before now and haven't? Not confident. > > Ian > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:58 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being > used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the > introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more > support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt > give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction > of the fixed terms. > > And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that > says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel > they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they > shouldn't be there. > > > > > > > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > DCFO > > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and > a DCFO > > > one being developed. > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > Saunders > > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > managing > > > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > brigades. Alot > > > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking > in on the > > > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review > the > > > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, > but we > > > never see the AM's > > > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change > this, sure > > > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > > > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but > is that > > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > good job > > > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to > be > > > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer > advice and > > > be available for issues that may arise. > > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this > new > > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed > and doesnt > > > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > spot..? Or does > > > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can > someone 'jump' > > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed > term. > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > issue > > > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > strong > > > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > wanting to > > > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to > became a > > > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model > rule > > > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > honestly... AS > > > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their > leaders > > > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone > other than > > > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be > fascinated > > > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire > Service > > > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in > that > > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed > beyond the > > > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > fluffing > > > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory > castor > > > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching > their > > > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about > it. > > > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" < > tony@sutorius.org> > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> Hi all, > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > real (and > > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > finally > > > > >> going ahead. > > > > >> > > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic > and > > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > office, > > > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > > > >> > > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > rewards, > > > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible > dividend > > > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the > local > > > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire > truck. We're > > > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It > feels > > > > >> good. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap > we often > > > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > figures doing > > > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we > do this > > > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing > ourselves > > > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our > own > > > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our > brigades > > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel > that, since > > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > don't > > > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable > figures in > > > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > > position. > > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of > their lives. > > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, > both within > > > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing > and > > > rather > > > > >> addictive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth > and claw > > > to > > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new > energy and > > > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > aggressively > > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > God's > > > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just > parrying > > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback > style. > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference > makes this > > > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > concentrated > > > form > > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > > >> > > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > > recognise > > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > > >> > > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > > >> > > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > 12/16/11 > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > 12/17/11 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 01:17:25 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Tue Dec 20 01:17:47 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> Tony, don't moan about the enormous amount of "unity" required then preach democracy, my OCD driven deductive logic screams contradiction with the groin like pain of a pinched testicle as it struggles to conform to the unnatural pattern of your zip as you digress from expelling urine. If you can't get the unity to roll a chief, then you haven't got the unity to rely on brigade democracy. I'm all for democracy. BUT. At the end of the day, whether one person makes a decision, or a group of people make a decision - all that matters is the result. The problem I foresee is when too much emphasis is put on doing it "the right way" instead of doing "the right thing". This seems to be creeping more and more into the mindset of some people after training - It surfaces when you're doing something and some anal retentive dip shit goes "oh you're not doing it the right way "; doesn't really matter so long as the job gets done. I just hope that perspective isn't lost when measuring the performance of CFO/DCFO's. As for the "buys the most beers" analogy being slung around, although I understand and agree with the sentiment, I resent this analogy very much and ask that no one repeat it again. If this keeps going people will start thinking that it's "bad" to shout a round after a job well done or something. Google/Wikipedia "moral panic". Also good to see no one has had the balls to take up my question re: female executive officers in the fire service. Winston Churchill once said "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter". I've got an updated version for the 21st century. "The best argument against everyone getting a say is comparing it with no one getting a say - you'll get the same result". If anyone believes otherwise, I want to know if you're game enough to give your kids the same discretion. I sure as hell wouldn't, they'd vote for McDonalds as dinner every night which is okay because I'm a fat Maori that loves junk food and diabetes is part of my retirement plan (note: sarcasm), but they'd also vote to watch cartoons all day and vote that we all wear spider man outfits everywhere. > On 18/12/2011 10:33 p.m., Tony wrote: > > Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of > unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. > The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous waste > of volunteer hours. > > There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared through > these dramas... I can easily see how. > > But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless > chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership > of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure for > a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business needs > to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders > underway. That's how it should be, surely? From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Tue Dec 20 08:37:27 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Tue Dec 20 08:37:47 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> Well said Anaru! Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Anaru Hartley Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 1:17 a.m. To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tony, don't moan about the enormous amount of "unity" required then preach democracy, my OCD driven deductive logic screams contradiction with the groin like pain of a pinched testicle as it struggles to conform to the unnatural pattern of your zip as you digress from expelling urine. If you can't get the unity to roll a chief, then you haven't got the unity to rely on brigade democracy. I'm all for democracy. BUT. At the end of the day, whether one person makes a decision, or a group of people make a decision - all that matters is the result. The problem I foresee is when too much emphasis is put on doing it "the right way" instead of doing "the right thing". This seems to be creeping more and more into the mindset of some people after training - It surfaces when you're doing something and some anal retentive dip shit goes "oh you're not doing it the right way "; doesn't really matter so long as the job gets done. I just hope that perspective isn't lost when measuring the performance of CFO/DCFO's. As for the "buys the most beers" analogy being slung around, although I understand and agree with the sentiment, I resent this analogy very much and ask that no one repeat it again. If this keeps going people will start thinking that it's "bad" to shout a round after a job well done or something. Google/Wikipedia "moral panic". Also good to see no one has had the balls to take up my question re: female executive officers in the fire service. Winston Churchill once said "the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter". I've got an updated version for the 21st century. "The best argument against everyone getting a say is comparing it with no one getting a say - you'll get the same result". If anyone believes otherwise, I want to know if you're game enough to give your kids the same discretion. I sure as hell wouldn't, they'd vote for McDonalds as dinner every night which is okay because I'm a fat Maori that loves junk food and diabetes is part of my retirement plan (note: sarcasm), but they'd also vote to watch cartoons all day and vote that we all wear spider man outfits everywhere. > On 18/12/2011 10:33 p.m., Tony wrote: > > Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of > unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. > The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous > waste of volunteer hours. > > There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared > through these dramas... I can easily see how. > > But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless > chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership > of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure > for a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business > needs to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders > underway. That's how it should be, surely? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Dec 20 09:55:56 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Dec 20 09:56:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or more. It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the eventual outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest it's actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this course of action. As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. T. On 20/12/2011, at 8:37, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Well said Anaru! > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Anaru Hartley > Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 1:17 a.m. > To: 'VollyNet' > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Tony, don't moan about the enormous amount of "unity" required then preach > democracy, my OCD driven deductive logic screams contradiction with the > groin like pain of a pinched testicle as it struggles to conform to the > unnatural pattern of your zip as you digress from expelling urine. > > If you can't get the unity to roll a chief, then you haven't got the unity > to rely on brigade democracy. > > I'm all for democracy. BUT. > > At the end of the day, whether one person makes a decision, or a group of > people make a decision - all that matters is the result. > > The problem I foresee is when too much emphasis is put on doing it "the > right way" instead of doing "the right thing". This seems to be creeping > more and more into the mindset of some people after training - It surfaces > when you're doing something and some anal retentive dip shit goes "oh you're > not doing it the right way "; doesn't > really matter so long as the job gets done. > > I just hope that perspective isn't lost when measuring the performance of > CFO/DCFO's. > > As for the "buys the most beers" analogy being slung around, although I > understand and agree with the sentiment, I resent this analogy very much and > ask that no one repeat it again. If this keeps going people will start > thinking that it's "bad" to shout a round after a job well done or > something. Google/Wikipedia "moral panic". > > Also good to see no one has had the balls to take up my question re: female > executive officers in the fire service. > > Winston Churchill once said "the best argument against democracy is a five > minute conversation with the average voter". I've got an updated version for > the 21st century. "The best argument against everyone getting a say is > comparing it with no one getting a say - you'll get the same result". If > anyone believes otherwise, I want to know if you're game enough to give your > kids the same discretion. I sure as hell wouldn't, they'd vote for McDonalds > as dinner every night which is okay because I'm a fat Maori that loves junk > food and diabetes is part of my retirement plan (note: sarcasm), but they'd > also vote to watch cartoons all day and vote that we all wear spider man > outfits everywhere. > > >> On 18/12/2011 10:33 p.m., Tony wrote: >> >> Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of >> unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. >> The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous >> waste of volunteer hours. >> >> There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared >> through these dramas... I can easily see how. >> >> But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless >> chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership >> of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure >> for a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business >> needs to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders >> underway. That's how it should be, surely? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 11:15:43 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Tue Dec 20 11:16:05 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather than just the one quoted. I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a muddy process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some might mistake it for an ultimatum. It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you ever fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely have the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like environment. So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior motives of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a roster and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find anyone so I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. Couldn't ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below them, not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm > particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). > > What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a > graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely > dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or more. > It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the eventual > outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. > > You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest it's > actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this > course of action. > > As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've > outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. > > T. From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Tue Dec 20 11:59:54 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Tue Dec 20 12:00:25 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Well said Sent from my iPhone On 20/12/2011, at 11:15 AM, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather than > just the one quoted. > > I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, > we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a muddy > process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some might > mistake it for an ultimatum. > > It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you ever > fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get > upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a > negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. > > Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely have > the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like > environment. > > So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the > flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior motives > of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. > > Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a roster > and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find anyone so > I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. Couldn't > ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are > suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below them, > not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm >> particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). >> >> What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a >> graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely >> dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or > more. >> It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the > eventual >> outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. >> >> You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest it's >> actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this >> course of action. >> >> As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've >> outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. >> >> T. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Dec 20 13:21:37 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Dec 20 13:21:46 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Anaru, I've run my own international business for twelve years, and before that managed a team of 30 staff for NZ Police. I've both hired and, unfortunately, fired many people. I've dealt with numerous difficult and sensitive HR situations. You? Tony On 20/12/2011, at 11:15, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather than > just the one quoted. > > I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, > we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a muddy > process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some might > mistake it for an ultimatum. > > It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you ever > fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get > upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a > negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. > > Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely have > the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like > environment. > > So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the > flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior motives > of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. > > Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a roster > and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find anyone so > I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. Couldn't > ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are > suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below them, > not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm >> particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). >> >> What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a >> graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely >> dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or > more. >> It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the > eventual >> outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. >> >> You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest it's >> actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this >> course of action. >> >> As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've >> outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. >> >> T. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 14:26:44 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Tue Dec 20 14:27:11 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> In light of all that I fail to understand how you think the current process is flawed, then again now you mention the Police I can appreciate that you'll be well versed in following procedures and all that, so I guess you're more cross the T's and dot the I's focused than I am. The way I see it, if someone doesn't go after been given a pretty clear talking to then they deserve whatever nastiness comes there way and in retrospect it should be more unifying for a brigade rallying against someone who clearly doesn't want to listen. The way I read and understand the example you've given suggests that if a brigade goes through "pain" then it's a "moral panic" scenario where someone has instigated the whole affair for their own reasons. Your penis is definitely bigger than mine. But I do have a few inches to wield so I'm not completely talking out my backside. I've employed half a dozen characters (I refuse to call them people) who have presented various HR issues that can be summarised with: I've been shot at twice and stabbed with a screw driver. The joys of running a scrap metal business in South Auckland where some people haven't evolved. Not all bad though, the local killer beez came in one day, they'd mistakenly thought that they were employees who were owed wages or something, we ended up getting ice creams and driving around Otahuhu talking about life, the universe and everything in between. Maybe that'll help explain where my sense of humour comes from too. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 13:22 > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Anaru, > > I've run my own international business for twelve years, and before that > managed a team of 30 staff for NZ Police. I've both hired and, > unfortunately, fired many people. I've dealt with numerous difficult and > sensitive HR situations. > > You? > > Tony > > > > > > > On 20/12/2011, at 11:15, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather > than > > just the one quoted. > > > > I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, > > we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a > muddy > > process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some > might > > mistake it for an ultimatum. > > > > It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you ever > > fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get > > upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a > > negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. > > > > Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely have > > the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like > > environment. > > > > So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the > > flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior > motives > > of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. > > > > Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a > roster > > and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find anyone > so > > I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. > Couldn't > > ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are > > suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below > them, > > not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > >> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm > >> particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). > >> > >> What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a > >> graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely > >> dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or > > more. > >> It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the > > eventual > >> outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. > >> > >> You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest > it's > >> actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this > >> course of action. > >> > >> As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've > >> outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. > >> > >> T. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From nigel at ihug.co.nz Tue Dec 20 15:03:32 2011 From: nigel at ihug.co.nz (Nigel Lilley) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:03:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Registration for 2012 National Road Crash Rescue Now Open to All Brigades In-Reply-To: <29A60B3A1A864C63AE788FD48F3EEBD3@SN2938977271> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, , , <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, , , <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , , , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz>, , <29A60B3A1A864C63AE788FD48F3EEBD3@SN2938977271> Message-ID: <3B31E8812EF54CE682AAE685E9C5A6D4@nigelmain> Team Places still remain for teams looking to compete in the National Road Crash Rescue Challenge taking place in Queenstown from 16 to 19 February. Visit the UFBA page for more information on the event and to access the registration link. If you have questions about the event or how to register, contact the events team at events@ufba.org.nz or by phone on 04 237 0265. Schedule of Events: Thursday 16 February 4pm - 5.30pm Registration 6pm Team Briefing Friday 17 February 7.30am Challenge begins 5.15pm Challenge ends (approx) 6pm Welcome Function Saturday 18 February 7.30am Challenge begins 5.15pm Challenge ends (approx) Free evening Sunday 19 February 7.30am Challenge begins 5.15pm Challenge ends (approx) 7pm Prizegiving Registered Teams Teams that have registered so far are: Ashburton Balclutha Blenheim Cooks Beach Feilding Greytown Hawera Leeston Milton Morrinsville Queenstown Ranfurly Rangiora Rolleston Silverdale Stratford Waikanae Whitianga From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Tue Dec 20 16:53:39 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Tue Dec 20 16:53:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <002701ccbeca$f76ae1f0$e640a5d0$@yahoo.co.nz> Anaru, Hahahahahaha frickn funny man, lol :) -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Anaru Hartley Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 2:27 p.m. To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Your penis is definitely bigger than mine. But I do have a few inches to wield so I'm not completely talking out my backside. Maybe that'll help explain where my sense of humour comes from too. From tony at sutorius.org Tue Dec 20 18:35:15 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Dec 20 18:35:29 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <28B8DA0D-629E-4D7F-AA31-F8D0C80F4326@sutorius.org> That might be my all-time favorite VollyNet post Anaru. Nice. You have squarely moved to the number one slot in my "VollyNetters to have a beer with" list, sounds like you have some bloody great stories to tell. And I must admit, I've never been shot at (that I noticed) or stabbed in the conduct of HR. Must add an interesting dimension to negotiation strategy! My expectations about how a CFO should react to that approach are identical to yours. Sadly my experience of this situation in real life is much, MUCH different, as I have attempted to intimate. Now, you would THINK that any CFO who finds themselves being unambiguously told that they no longer enjoy the confidence and support of their brigade would resign as fast as possible... I certainly would. And in that case democracy is effectively happening, albeit in relatively tough way for a well-meaning CFO who may have tried their best but fallen short. But real life has demonstrated that some simply don't. I guess for the sorts of reasons I've mentioned in recent posts they just refuse to let go of the glittering "baubles of power" that Winston Peters pretends not to covert. The trouble with the process is that it takes many months, and those months are AFTER the process outlined in the rules occurs, and everyone's card have been laid on the table. So, for up to a year, and very possibly longer or forever if the RM disagrees with your "dissatisfaction", the CFO is still the CFO, now very possibly pissed off and vindictive, potentially flailing about in full King Lear mode. Stop for a moment and consider how that would work out in real life in your brigade. So, that's what I'm saying mate. No matter how unified and righteous you all may be, going through this exercise truly sucks, if the CFO in question insists on making it suck. And there's a good chance they will. Now, do I think the process should be different? Well, it could be faster, but I appreciate the need for natural justice, so that may not be easy. Because its all based on fault, there needs to be due process and the opportunity to respond. It seems to me a much better option in most cases would be to build a natural cycle into brigade leadership so that it painlessly refreshes itself fairly regularly, and hopefully festers to this sorry state far less often. So, rock 'n roll! Tony PS: I write from the departure lounge, about to head off to the US and (ironically) a lot of no-net days for 6 weeks. There's going to be some server disruption in the first week of January as my tech rebuilds the server Vollynet runs on; won't be long, and any messages you send will appear eventually. Ignore any non-delivery mails you get. Have a great Christmas everyone! T. On 20/12/2011, at 14:26, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > In light of all that I fail to understand how you think the current process > is flawed, then again now you mention the Police I can appreciate that > you'll be well versed in following procedures and all that, so I guess > you're more cross the T's and dot the I's focused than I am. The way I see > it, if someone doesn't go after been given a pretty clear talking to then > they deserve whatever nastiness comes there way and in retrospect it should > be more unifying for a brigade rallying against someone who clearly doesn't > want to listen. The way I read and understand the example you've given > suggests that if a brigade goes through "pain" then it's a "moral panic" > scenario where someone has instigated the whole affair for their own > reasons. > > Your penis is definitely bigger than mine. > > But I do have a few inches to wield so I'm not completely talking out my > backside. I've employed half a dozen characters (I refuse to call them > people) who have presented various HR issues that can be summarised with: > I've been shot at twice and stabbed with a screw driver. The joys of running > a scrap metal business in South Auckland where some people haven't evolved. > Not all bad though, the local killer beez came in one day, they'd mistakenly > thought that they were employees who were owed wages or something, we ended > up getting ice creams and driving around Otahuhu talking about life, the > universe and everything in between. > > Maybe that'll help explain where my sense of humour comes from too. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 13:22 >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Anaru, >> >> I've run my own international business for twelve years, and before that >> managed a team of 30 staff for NZ Police. I've both hired and, >> unfortunately, fired many people. I've dealt with numerous difficult and >> sensitive HR situations. >> >> You? >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 20/12/2011, at 11:15, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather >> than >>> just the one quoted. >>> >>> I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, >>> we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a >> muddy >>> process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some >> might >>> mistake it for an ultimatum. >>> >>> It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you > ever >>> fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get >>> upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a >>> negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. >>> >>> Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely > have >>> the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like >>> environment. >>> >>> So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the >>> flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior >> motives >>> of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. >>> >>> Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a >> roster >>> and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find > anyone >> so >>> I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. >> Couldn't >>> ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are >>> suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below >> them, >>> not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >>>> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm >>>> particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). >>>> >>>> What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a >>>> graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely >>>> dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or >>> more. >>>> It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the >>> eventual >>>> outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. >>>> >>>> You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest >> it's >>>> actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this >>>> course of action. >>>> >>>> As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've >>>> outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. >>>> >>>> T. >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Tue Dec 20 19:19:58 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Tue Dec 20 19:20:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> <4eef2b5a.078c320a.7af8.2a24@mx.google.com> <000301ccbe85$a5c60e50$f1522af0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4eefb795.c9dc320a.3d18.40e6@mx.google.com> <4eefe45b.056ae00a.51b3.0343@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Great words from a real life Sent from my iPhone On 20/12/2011, at 2:26 PM, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > In light of all that I fail to understand how you think the current process > is flawed, then again now you mention the Police I can appreciate that > you'll be well versed in following procedures and all that, so I guess > you're more cross the T's and dot the I's focused than I am. The way I see > it, if someone doesn't go after been given a pretty clear talking to then > they deserve whatever nastiness comes there way and in retrospect it should > be more unifying for a brigade rallying against someone who clearly doesn't > want to listen. The way I read and understand the example you've given > suggests that if a brigade goes through "pain" then it's a "moral panic" > scenario where someone has instigated the whole affair for their own > reasons. > > Your penis is definitely bigger than mine. > > But I do have a few inches to wield so I'm not completely talking out my > backside. I've employed half a dozen characters (I refuse to call them > people) who have presented various HR issues that can be summarised with: > I've been shot at twice and stabbed with a screw driver. The joys of running > a scrap metal business in South Auckland where some people haven't evolved. > Not all bad though, the local killer beez came in one day, they'd mistakenly > thought that they were employees who were owed wages or something, we ended > up getting ice creams and driving around Otahuhu talking about life, the > universe and everything in between. > > Maybe that'll help explain where my sense of humour comes from too. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 13:22 >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Anaru, >> >> I've run my own international business for twelve years, and before that >> managed a team of 30 staff for NZ Police. I've both hired and, >> unfortunately, fired many people. I've dealt with numerous difficult and >> sensitive HR situations. >> >> You? >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 20/12/2011, at 11:15, "Anaru Hartley" wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> That was more of an amalgamated response to a few if your posts rather >> than >>> just the one quoted. >>> >>> I hear what you're saying, but it's really not that hard to say "Hi CFO, >>> we're not happy with you, so we're going to drag your name through a >> muddy >>> process unless you leave peacefully". That's diplomacy - although some >> might >>> mistake it for an ultimatum. >>> >>> It's only painful if you're precious about stuff like that. Have you > ever >>> fired someone? It happens all the time in the "real" world, people get >>> upset, egos get bruised, people feel guilty; Instead of seeing it as a >>> negative it's easier just to accept it as a fact of life. >>> >>> Maybe half the reason (for scheduled firing) is that brigades rarely > have >>> the collective balls to swallow all of this because of the family like >>> environment. >>> >>> So long as nothing changes (unless it needs to) I'm happy to go with the >>> flow on this one and or just mindlessly speculate about the ulterior >> motives >>> of the Fire Service in the true VollyNet spirit. >>> >>> Some people moan about our CFO, but he's a funny old bugger. We run a >> roster >>> and have to get cover for our shifts. A while back I couldn't find > anyone >> so >>> I rang the chief and asked him. He didn't have any problem with it. >> Couldn't >>> ask for much more humility from the dear leader. That's what chiefs are >>> suppose to do in my opinion, take responsibility for the muppets below >> them, >>> not hide behind some imaginary authority or prestige. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- >>>> bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2011 09:56 >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> I'm really not sure what point you guys are trying to make (but I'm >>>> particularly glad not to be Anaru's gynecologist). >>>> >>>> What I'm saying is that this, unless the chief in question chooses a >>>> graceful exit early on, this course of action is likely to completely >>>> dominate the lives of the senior members of the brigade for a year or >>> more. >>>> It utterly absorbs all light from the brigade, and (apart from the >>> eventual >>>> outcome) is an extremely negative way to spend your time. >>>> >>>> You might think this is great and just how it should be. I'd suggest >> it's >>>> actually a good explanation as to why more brigades don't follow this >>>> course of action. >>>> >>>> As an exercise in democracy it is exceedingly flawed. All the pain I've >>>> outlined comes AFTER the brigade has indicated their will. >>>> >>>> T. >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 21 07:21:14 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 21 07:21:35 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] The Sutorii invade Message-ID: <4EF0D21A.9030206@hintz.org> Yah, it's not fire related other than it involves Tony and yours truly, but what the hell... :) We can see the flight path for LAX up here at my grandfather's ol' place. So I figured I'd keep an eye out for NZ6, which was bearing Tony, Tania, and Theo this morning. Caught a photo on final. Sadly, missed the great shot; they went right under the Hollywood sign, gorgeous shot, but I'd handed the camera over to Sam at that point so all I have is the bird above the Angeles National Forest. If you zoom in to full resolution you can just make out the general shape of the Koru on the tail, but I could see it quite clearly in the binoculars. Taking photos through binocs is an interesting challenge. http://www.hintz.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2321 So, another hour or so and I'll head over to get them. They have to go through the evil-furriner-probably-terrorist immigration queue; on our flight last week it was about 3x longer than the god-fearing-freedom-loving-world-police citizens queue (and that took us a bit over an hour). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From pitchey at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 21 13:04:22 2011 From: pitchey at xtra.co.nz (John Pitchford) Date: Wed Dec 21 13:04:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] The Sutorii invade In-Reply-To: <4EF0D21A.9030206@hintz.org> References: <4EF0D21A.9030206@hintz.org> Message-ID: <000301ccbf74$185818c0$49084a40$@co.nz> I dunno mate, tailfin looks more like it has a splash of red and the Quantas Roo on it! -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2011 7:21 a.m. To: Plimmerton Volunteer Fire Brigade; VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] The Sutorii invade VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yah, it's not fire related other than it involves Tony and yours truly, but what the hell... :) We can see the flight path for LAX up here at my grandfather's ol' place. So I figured I'd keep an eye out for NZ6, which was bearing Tony, Tania, and Theo this morning. Caught a photo on final. Sadly, missed the great shot; they went right under the Hollywood sign, gorgeous shot, but I'd handed the camera over to Sam at that point so all I have is the bird above the Angeles National Forest. If you zoom in to full resolution you can just make out the general shape of the Koru on the tail, but I could see it quite clearly in the binoculars. Taking photos through binocs is an interesting challenge. http://www.hintz.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2321 So, another hour or so and I'll head over to get them. They have to go through the evil-furriner-probably-terrorist immigration queue; on our flight last week it was about 3x longer than the god-fearing-freedom-loving-world-police citizens queue (and that took us a bit over an hour). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Dec 21 16:15:14 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Dec 21 16:15:36 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Timeline of a House on Fire Message-ID: <4EF14F42.9050705@blakjak.net> A 2nd Alarm House fire in Titirangi earlier this week destroyed the house of a 2nd/3rd-degree-acquaintance (friend of a friend (of a friend)) and they are a Twitter user, so there's something of a timeline of events which is interesting to read. Each of the below is a direct link to a microblog entry... ive plucked the relevant ones from https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv. Some have photos attached, at least one has a video of the place in the aftermath which is interesting. https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148574848589905920 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148575912659660800 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148585741495177216 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148587408764575744 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148589745323245568 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148592995309060097 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148596191159005184 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148646697004838912 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148647066221027328 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148647405657657344 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148941001698975744 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148943386626367488 https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148951164807954432 https://www.facebook.com/CREWS.TV/posts/289420941103792 The latter was also a tweeted link, but tells a good story (Fire is such a tragic thing in examples such as this!) and I thought some folks here might find it interesting, thought provoking, touching. I did. Wishing friends on Vollynet and NZFire the best for the holiday season. Here's hoping there aren't too many more tragedies. Mark. From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Dec 21 16:22:56 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Dec 21 16:23:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Timeline of a House on Fire In-Reply-To: <4EF14F42.9050705@blakjak.net> References: <4EF14F42.9050705@blakjak.net> Message-ID: i see a nzfs commercial in that series of tweets nice work mark b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > A 2nd Alarm House fire in Titirangi earlier this week destroyed the > house of a 2nd/3rd-degree-acquaintance (friend of a friend (of a > friend)) and they are a Twitter user, so there's something of a timeline > of events which is interesting to read. > > Each of the below is a direct link to a microblog entry... ive plucked > the relevant ones from https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv. > Some have photos attached, at least one has a video of the place in the > aftermath which is interesting. > > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148574848589905920 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148575912659660800 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148585741495177216 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148587408764575744 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148589745323245568 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148592995309060097 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148596191159005184 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148646697004838912 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148647066221027328 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148647405657657344 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148941001698975744 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148943386626367488 > > https://twitter.com/#!/crewstv/status/148951164807954432 > > https://www.facebook.com/CREWS.TV/posts/289420941103792 > > > The latter was also a tweeted link, but tells a good story (Fire is such > a tragic thing in examples such as this!) and I thought some folks here > might find it interesting, thought provoking, touching. I did. > > Wishing friends on Vollynet and NZFire the best for the holiday season. > Here's hoping there aren't too many more tragedies. > > Mark. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz Thu Dec 22 10:32:30 2011 From: Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz (Paul Butler) Date: Thu Dec 22 10:32:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Off topic - stolen vehicle In-Reply-To: <4EE67EE4.2080402@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> <1323666882.65985.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5D533CAA-33C3-4059-95D4-6603CE0F509E@xtra.co.nz> <4EE67EE4.2080402@hintz.org> Message-ID: Hello eyes and ears out there. One of my colleagues has had her car stolen. There is a dozen beer in it for you if you locate it (plus never ending gratitude, etc etc). Actually - we have got a sweepstake going at work as to which part of the country it (or parts thereof) turns up in. Sorry - Levin is already taken... (and I have already bagsied Newlands) Prize is 4 internetz and a nyan cat. It is a 1997 White Ford Telstar Station Wagon - with a full tank of gas (bugger), license UD9685 Stolen from Mornington Road in Brooklyn Wellington ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** From Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz Thu Dec 22 11:07:31 2011 From: Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz (Paul Butler) Date: Thu Dec 22 11:07:45 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Off topic - stolen vehicle Message-ID: Hello eyes and ears out there. One of my colleagues has had her car stolen. There is a dozen beer in it for you if you locate it (plus never ending gratitude, etc etc). Actually - we have got a sweepstake going at work as to which part of the country it (or parts thereof) turns up in. Sorry - Levin is already taken... (and I have already bagsied Newlands) Prize is 4 internetz and a nyan cat. It is a 1997 White Ford Telstar Station Wagon - with a full tank of gas (bugger), license UD9685 Stolen from Mornington Road in Brooklyn Wellington ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** From paulandrochelle at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 22 22:58:48 2011 From: paulandrochelle at xtra.co.nz (Paul and Rochelle) Date: Thu Dec 22 22:59:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Off topic - stolen vehicle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha, you've bagsied Newlands?, fair enough!..... though I think you'd be on the money if the car had been left alone & the full tank had been syphoned ;) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Butler Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 11:07 AM To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] Off topic - stolen vehicle VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hello eyes and ears out there. One of my colleagues has had her car stolen. There is a dozen beer in it for you if you locate it (plus never ending gratitude, etc etc). Actually - we have got a sweepstake going at work as to which part of the country it (or parts thereof) turns up in. Sorry - Levin is already taken... (and I have already bagsied Newlands) Prize is 4 internetz and a nyan cat. It is a 1997 White Ford Telstar Station Wagon - with a full tank of gas (bugger), license UD9685 Stolen from Mornington Road in Brooklyn Wellington ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From blakjak at blakjak.net Fri Dec 23 14:36:31 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Fri Dec 23 14:36:49 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Quake in Chch Message-ID: <4EF3DB1F.1060503@blakjak.net> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0007b7t.php Bottom line? Magnitude 5.8 4.7km deep 26km ENE of Christchurch City Twitter is lighting up with reports of flooding, damage within households and evacuations at the Airport, Westfield Riccarton some power outages. Feeling for our brethren down there right now! Mark. From ben at diversity.net.nz Fri Dec 23 14:38:51 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Fri Dec 23 14:39:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Quake in Chch In-Reply-To: <4EF3DB1F.1060503@blakjak.net> References: <4EF3DB1F.1060503@blakjak.net> Message-ID: Thanks mark. It was actually kind if fun, so long as one ignored the whole life/death thing.... Ben Sent from mobile. Expect brevity and typos On Dec 23, 2011 2:37 PM, "Mark Foster" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0007b7t.php > > Bottom line? > > Magnitude 5.8 > > 4.7km deep > > 26km ENE of Christchurch City > > Twitter is lighting up with reports of flooding, damage within > households and evacuations at the Airport, Westfield Riccarton some > power outages. > > Feeling for our brethren down there right now! > > Mark. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tony at sutorius.org Fri Dec 23 16:37:39 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Dec 23 16:37:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Quake in Chch In-Reply-To: References: <4EF3DB1F.1060503@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <244E08EA-D1C2-4C66-97FF-4EA2E901726F@sutorius.org> Ah geeze guys! Again? Your Californian comrades send our best wishes. Bloody hell. T. On 22/12/2011, at 17:38, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks mark. It was actually kind if fun, so long as one ignored the whole > life/death thing.... > > Ben > > Sent from mobile. Expect brevity and typos > On Dec 23, 2011 2:37 PM, "Mark Foster" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0007b7t.php >> >> Bottom line? >> >> Magnitude 5.8 >> >> 4.7km deep >> >> 26km ENE of Christchurch City >> >> Twitter is lighting up with reports of flooding, damage within >> households and evacuations at the Airport, Westfield Riccarton some >> power outages. >> >> Feeling for our brethren down there right now! >> >> Mark. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Fri Dec 23 17:38:09 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Dec 23 17:38:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ADMIN: List email issues Message-ID: Good evening all, We've just become aware of a problem that means some list users are not receiving all or some VollyNet mail. This issue may have been in existence for several weeks, and we are working very hard to resolve it now. May take several more days. Sorry about that; we'll let you know when we're sure it's sorted. Tony From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 23 17:44:06 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 23 17:44:21 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ADMIN: List email issues Message-ID: <4EF40716.8060103@hintz.org> > We've just become aware of a problem that means some list users are not receiving all or some VollyNet mail. This issue may have been in existence for several weeks, and we are working very hard to resolve it now. May take several more days. I suspect only about 2-3 days. I stopped getting VNs somewhere between Tue and Wed, and Paul B had his blackhole start about the same time. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 23 18:50:27 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 23 18:50:48 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ADMIN: List email issues In-Reply-To: <4EF40716.8060103@hintz.org> References: <4EF40716.8060103@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EF416A3.5080206@hintz.org> On 12/22/11 8:44 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > I suspect only about 2-3 days. I stopped getting VNs somewhere between > Tue and Wed, and Paul B had his blackhole start about the same time. Looks like it's sorted, I've just gotten an inrush of stuff from the past few days. May take another few hours for everybody to come right, but should be sweet in the am. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From jeremy at rybak.co.nz Fri Dec 23 19:10:37 2011 From: jeremy at rybak.co.nz (Jeremy Greenwood) Date: Fri Dec 23 19:11:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Quake in Chch In-Reply-To: <244E08EA-D1C2-4C66-97FF-4EA2E901726F@sutorius.org> References: <4EF3DB1F.1060503@blakjak.net> <244E08EA-D1C2-4C66-97FF-4EA2E901726F@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <1823928457-1324620660-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-438754686-@b26.c4.bise3.blackberry> Fk thus shit, so looking for to xmas. Bang next its it fkd.. Thks for your thgts... Sent via BlackBerry? -----Original Message----- From: Tony Sutorius Sender: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:37:39 To: VollyNet Reply-To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Quake in Chch VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ah geeze guys! Again? Your Californian comrades send our best wishes. Bloody hell. T. On 22/12/2011, at 17:38, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks mark. It was actually kind if fun, so long as one ignored the whole > life/death thing.... > > Ben > > Sent from mobile. Expect brevity and typos > On Dec 23, 2011 2:37 PM, "Mark Foster" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0007b7t.php >> >> Bottom line? >> >> Magnitude 5.8 >> >> 4.7km deep >> >> 26km ENE of Christchurch City >> >> Twitter is lighting up with reports of flooding, damage within >> households and evacuations at the Airport, Westfield Riccarton some >> power outages. >> >> Feeling for our brethren down there right now! >> >> Mark. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise