From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Dec 12 10:12:42 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Dec 12 10:13:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Your last line sums it up Allan and I am sure the NZFS would agree. " The FS should purchase all operational equipment..." The downside to this is obviously what they think you should ahve (and therfore purchase for you) and what you think should have widely differ. If they were to buy everything every brigade wanted they'd go broke. With rescue equipment they have a policy of buying the equipment for specified rescue tenders. BUT once again they have done a rescue report some years ago that hasn't been released because of sensitivity because I believe it identifies that every station doesn't need rescue gear and therefore be a NZFS funded rescue tender. This is very evident here on the Kapiti Coast where Paraparaumu and Otaki are the NZFS recognised dedicated rescue tenders, yet both Waikanae and Paekakariki went into the community and bought extrication sets worth $40K+. I thin since Paek bought theirs (after the wire barrier was installed on Centennial Highway) its been used once. This is why the NZFS are refusing to fund "anything and everything" ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Hoult To: VollyNet Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:18 PM Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. My question is..... What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. It has been my long held thought that the FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. Thoughts...... ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 12 12:22:47 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Mon Dec 12 12:23:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Ok, then, if I can rephrase, what do you think would be acceptable items that communities could fund/donate towards their local Brigades, as there seems to be willingness in many towns for that to happen? From: Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz> To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Sent: Monday, 12 December 2011 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising Your last line sums it up Allan and I am sure the NZFS would agree. " The FS should purchase all operational equipment..." The downside to this is obviously what they think you should ahve (and therfore purchase for you) and what you think should have widely differ. If they were to buy everything every brigade wanted they'd go broke. With rescue equipment they have a policy of buying the equipment for specified rescue tenders. BUT once again they have done a rescue report some years ago that hasn't been released because of sensitivity because I believe it identifies that every station doesn't need rescue gear and therefore be a NZFS funded rescue tender. This is very evident here on the Kapiti Coast where Paraparaumu and Otaki are the NZFS recognised dedicated rescue tenders, yet both Waikanae and Paekakariki went into the community and bought extrication sets worth $40K+. I thin since Paek bought theirs (after the wire barrier was installed on Centennial Highway) its been used once. This is why the NZFS are refusing to fund "anything and everything" ----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Hoult >To: VollyNet >Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:18 PM >Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising > >VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. >Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. > >My question is..... > >What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) > >Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? > >If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. > >It has been my long held thought that the FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. > >Thoughts...... >---------------------------------------------------------------- >MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Mon Dec 12 14:24:47 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Mon Dec 12 14:25:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EE557DF.7060401@hintz.org> On 12/12/11 12:22 PM, Allan Hoult wrote: > Ok, then, if I can rephrase, what do you think would be acceptable items that communities could fund/donate towards their local Brigades, as there seems to be willingness in many towns for that to happen? Top of my list would be AED. Probably just as likely to save one of our own as it is member of the public. IMHO it's a must have on every appliance just for the self preservation aspect. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Mon Dec 12 14:29:14 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Mon Dec 12 14:29:33 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> On 12/10/11 4:18 PM, Allan Hoult wrote: > What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) Gotta be careful. Set a precedent that you'll buy it yourself and the FS has no incentive to spend money on you. But that said, if it's a given they won't, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to self-fund. If you end up with flash gear, hey, whatever. You bought it. Of course, I'd say that upkeep is still your problem. Training, maybe the FS can spring for that. Thinking of items like cutout gear; it's prolly in the FS's best interest to supply training even if the gear is self funded. > Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? Can they even do that? What are they going to do, fire you? At the end of the day they don't have a helluva lot of leverage against a volly unit. Sure, if you're running around bringing the service into disrepute they've got something. But using self funded gear? Hard to see how they'd successfully stop a determined brigade. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Dec 12 15:02:35 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Dec 12 15:03:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P><1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58D185F1533B473E8DCF0325B0CA73A0@SN2938977271> The acceptable items are obviously those that the NZFS wont supply but the brigade feels could be of some use. If you have a lot of structure fires then maybe a TIC, but then the NZFS supplied these to many stations on the basis of structure fire actual incidents. Again if you are not a PRT brigade and are responding to several MVA's and have to wait on a regular basis for cutting gear to arrive, then maybe a combi tool set up so you can commence rescue operations? If you are a station some distance from ambulance getting a lot of co responder calls then perhaps a defib and decent medical kit? If you are in a rural patch getting lots of scrubbies and the TA wont supply a tanker then maybe use those donated funds towards a tanker? You really are only limited by two things - your imagination and the amount of money the community is willing to donate? ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Hoult To: VollyNet Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, then, if I can rephrase, what do you think would be acceptable items that communities could fund/donate towards their local Brigades, as there seems to be willingness in many towns for that to happen? From: Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz> To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Sent: Monday, 12 December 2011 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising Your last line sums it up Allan and I am sure the NZFS would agree. " The FS should purchase all operational equipment..." The downside to this is obviously what they think you should ahve (and therfore purchase for you) and what you think should have widely differ. If they were to buy everything every brigade wanted they'd go broke. With rescue equipment they have a policy of buying the equipment for specified rescue tenders. BUT once again they have done a rescue report some years ago that hasn't been released because of sensitivity because I believe it identifies that every station doesn't need rescue gear and therefore be a NZFS funded rescue tender. This is very evident here on the Kapiti Coast where Paraparaumu and Otaki are the NZFS recognised dedicated rescue tenders, yet both Waikanae and Paekakariki went into the community and bought extrication sets worth $40K+. I thin since Paek bought theirs (after the wire barrier was installed on Centennial Highway) its been used once. This is why the NZFS are refusing to fund "anything and everything" ----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Hoult >To: VollyNet >Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:18 PM >Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising > >VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. >Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. > >My question is..... > >What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) > >Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? > >If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. > >It has been my long held thought that the FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. > >Thoughts...... >---------------------------------------------------------------- >MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From mike at firepumps.co.nz Mon Dec 12 15:54:47 2011 From: mike at firepumps.co.nz (Mike Harrison) Date: Mon Dec 12 15:55:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <58D185F1533B473E8DCF0325B0CA73A0@SN2938977271> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P><1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <58D185F1533B473E8DCF0325B0CA73A0@SN2938977271> Message-ID: <91D9A6B0FC6E49A6B4355226CFC6AB41@Miketoshiba> New Tanker, Helicopter landing lights, AED, Generator, Battery Drill, Sabre saw and Portable Dam are all things we have bought in the last few years. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Ian & Heather King Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:02 PM To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- The acceptable items are obviously those that the NZFS wont supply but the brigade feels could be of some use. If you have a lot of structure fires then maybe a TIC, but then the NZFS supplied these to many stations on the basis of structure fire actual incidents. Again if you are not a PRT brigade and are responding to several MVA's and have to wait on a regular basis for cutting gear to arrive, then maybe a combi tool set up so you can commence rescue operations? If you are a station some distance from ambulance getting a lot of co responder calls then perhaps a defib and decent medical kit? If you are in a rural patch getting lots of scrubbies and the TA wont supply a tanker then maybe use those donated funds towards a tanker? You really are only limited by two things - your imagination and the amount of money the community is willing to donate? ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Hoult To: VollyNet Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, then, if I can rephrase, what do you think would be acceptable items that communities could fund/donate towards their local Brigades, as there seems to be willingness in many towns for that to happen? From: Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz> To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Sent: Monday, 12 December 2011 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising Your last line sums it up Allan and I am sure the NZFS would agree. " The FS should purchase all operational equipment..." The downside to this is obviously what they think you should ahve (and therfore purchase for you) and what you think should have widely differ. If they were to buy everything every brigade wanted they'd go broke. With rescue equipment they have a policy of buying the equipment for specified rescue tenders. BUT once again they have done a rescue report some years ago that hasn't been released because of sensitivity because I believe it identifies that every station doesn't need rescue gear and therefore be a NZFS funded rescue tender. This is very evident here on the Kapiti Coast where Paraparaumu and Otaki are the NZFS recognised dedicated rescue tenders, yet both Waikanae and Paekakariki went into the community and bought extrication sets worth $40K+. I thin since Paek bought theirs (after the wire barrier was installed on Centennial Highway) its been used once. This is why the NZFS are refusing to fund "anything and everything" ----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Hoult >To: VollyNet >Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:18 PM >Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising > >VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. >Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. > >My question is..... > >What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) > >Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? > >If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. > >It has been my long held thought that the FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. > >Thoughts...... >---------------------------------------------------------------- >MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Dec 12 17:19:48 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Dec 12 17:20:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org><1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P><1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1323645767.39486.YahooMailNeo@web112519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><58D185F1533B473E8DCF0325B0CA73A0@SN2938977271> <91D9A6B0FC6E49A6B4355226CFC6AB41@Miketoshiba> Message-ID: Thats not bad out of a very small community Mike, or do you get good sponsorship from the portable pump manufacturer in town?? :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Harrison To: VollyNet Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Tanker, Helicopter landing lights, AED, Generator, Battery Drill, Sabre saw and Portable Dam are all things we have bought in the last few years. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Ian & Heather King Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:02 PM To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- The acceptable items are obviously those that the NZFS wont supply but the brigade feels could be of some use. If you have a lot of structure fires then maybe a TIC, but then the NZFS supplied these to many stations on the basis of structure fire actual incidents. Again if you are not a PRT brigade and are responding to several MVA's and have to wait on a regular basis for cutting gear to arrive, then maybe a combi tool set up so you can commence rescue operations? If you are a station some distance from ambulance getting a lot of co responder calls then perhaps a defib and decent medical kit? If you are in a rural patch getting lots of scrubbies and the TA wont supply a tanker then maybe use those donated funds towards a tanker? You really are only limited by two things - your imagination and the amount of money the community is willing to donate? ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Hoult To: VollyNet Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, then, if I can rephrase, what do you think would be acceptable items that communities could fund/donate towards their local Brigades, as there seems to be willingness in many towns for that to happen? From: Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz> To: Allan Hoult ; VollyNet Sent: Monday, 12 December 2011 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising Your last line sums it up Allan and I am sure the NZFS would agree. " The FS should purchase all operational equipment..." The downside to this is obviously what they think you should ahve (and therfore purchase for you) and what you think should have widely differ. If they were to buy everything every brigade wanted they'd go broke. With rescue equipment they have a policy of buying the equipment for specified rescue tenders. BUT once again they have done a rescue report some years ago that hasn't been released because of sensitivity because I believe it identifies that every station doesn't need rescue gear and therefore be a NZFS funded rescue tender. This is very evident here on the Kapiti Coast where Paraparaumu and Otaki are the NZFS recognised dedicated rescue tenders, yet both Waikanae and Paekakariki went into the community and bought extrication sets worth $40K+. I thin since Paek bought theirs (after the wire barrier was installed on Centennial Highway) its been used once. This is why the NZFS are refusing to fund "anything and everything" ----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Hoult >To: VollyNet >Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:18 PM >Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising > >VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. >Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. > >My question is..... > >What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) > >Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? > >If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. > >It has been my long held thought that the FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. > >Thoughts...... >---------------------------------------------------------------- >MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Mon Dec 12 18:14:42 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Mon Dec 12 18:15:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> Message-ID: <1323666882.65985.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Can they even do that? What are they going to do, fire you? At the end of the day they don't have a helluva lot of leverage against a volly unit. Sure, if you're running around bringing the service into disrepute they've got something. But using self funded gear? Hard to see how they'd successfully stop a determined brigade. Regards, Ed Hintz You really are only limited by two things - your imagination and the amount of money the community is willing to donate? Ian King New Tanker, Helicopter landing lights, AED, Generator, Battery Drill, Sabre saw and Portable Dam are all things we have bought in the last few years. Regards Mike Harrison ? ^^^^The above?quotes were the kind of reply i was after. Maybe someone could shed some light on items of uniform that either would or wouldn't be permissable to purchase. From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Mon Dec 12 18:15:49 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Mon Dec 12 18:16:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- Karikari fire was arson Message-ID: <022f01ccb88d$1ce10430$56a30c90$@co.nz> http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/30234.html From arrin.jess at xtra.co.nz Mon Dec 12 21:39:52 2011 From: arrin.jess at xtra.co.nz (Arrin & Jess Rozendaal) Date: Mon Dec 12 21:40:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <1323666882.65985.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> <1323666882.65985.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D533CAA-33C3-4059-95D4-6603CE0F509E@xtra.co.nz> Some brigades have had issues where the FS have said you buy it you pay to keep and train on it... That included fuel servicing and maintenance. Generally though if say a defib was donated to you the FS does not normally have too many issues. East Coast Bays VFB has a defib donated by a community org but allows it to reside on the paid truck 831 and there have been no issues with training and upkeep. Sent from my iPhone On 12/12/2011, at 3:14 PM, Allan Hoult wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Can they even do that? What are they going to do, fire you? At the end > of the day they don't have a helluva lot of leverage against a volly > unit. Sure, if you're running around bringing the service into disrepute > they've got something. But using self funded gear? Hard to see how > they'd successfully stop a determined brigade. > Regards, > Ed Hintz > > > You really are only limited by two things - your imagination and the amount of money the community is willing to donate? > Ian King > > > New Tanker, Helicopter landing lights, AED, Generator, Battery Drill, Sabre saw and Portable Dam are all things we have bought in the last few years. > Regards > Mike Harrison > > > > ^^^^The above quotes were the kind of reply i was after. Maybe someone could shed some light on items of uniform that either would or wouldn't be permissable to purchase. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Dec 13 09:18:16 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:18:20 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] NEWS: Victim's body left behind after crash Message-ID: <8FE4BD88-E38C-4CFF-A7E0-DAB926180F03@sutorius.org> Emergency services missed the body of a man killed in a car crash - he was discovered 45 minutes later by a schoolbus driver after police had left the scene. The mother of George Porter, 40, is planning to lodge a complaint with police while those who found his body facedown in a ditch have described the oversight as "bizarre". Mr Porter was being dropped to his home on State Highway 35 at Opape, east of Opotiki, shortly after 2pm last Thursday when the car he was travelling in crossed the line and hit a bank. He was thrown from the backseat of the Nissan Maxima, while two others in the car, both heavily intoxicated, were found by police hiding nearby. Both men were "highly unco-operative" and refused to tell police officers at the scene whether there had been any more passengers in the car, Inspector Sandra Venables said. The Eastern Bay of Plenty area commander said police undertook an "extensive visual search" and the body was not visible to any of the emergency service personnel at the scene. "Police had been led to believe that there were only two occupants of the car - one who was in custody and one who was receiving medical treatment for minor injuries." However, 45 minutes later, Daniel Paruru was completing his bus run with three children onboard when he saw what he thought was a glove sticking out of the ditch. "I didn't believe it was a hand - I had my mind made up that it was a glove. I'd thought, surely they wouldn't have left a hand there," he told the Herald last night. To put his mind at ease, he stopped after returning from Opotiki to find Mr Porter's submerged body. "It didn't look real ... there was a dead body in the drain." He drove to the nearby house of his niece, Cherie Watene, and her grandmother, Gail Williams, who went to look for themselves. "His hand was sticking out of the water ... it was like a nightmare. After that I said take me home," Ms Watene said. "We came back to ring the cops and 10 minutes later they were back out there." Mrs Williams stayed with police at the scene throughout the evening. "It was very strange to find him there, sticking out of the water, to find him on his side," she said. "I don't know how many of the emergency vehicles attended the actual accident but obviously they had the ambulance here, the police were here and the tow truck ... and when they pull a vehicle away surely they look behind." Speaking after Mr Porter's funeral yesterday, his mother Clara Porter said she would be lodging a complaint. "They left my son lying in that water with his hand up. The police didn't do their job, they left him behind," she said. "It's not good enough ... they never looked properly and my son died in that drain." Mr Paruru described the incident as "bloody weird" and said he was annoyed. He blamed the driver for drinking and driving and said Mr Porter's body would not have been left behind if they had told the police. "But it's no excuse for a body to be left behind, for sure," he said. "I don't want to be condemning the cops and emergency services because they do a good job but they still failed - they left a body behind." Ms Venables said a full crash investigation was under way and it was likely charges would be laid. Mr Porter's death has been referred to the coroner. The crash served as a timely reminder about drink-driving as the festive season approached. "Unfortunately, despite all the advertising, crashes, deaths and apprehensions, drink-driving is still a major problem in the Eastern Bay of Plenty area." Stuff.co.nz From ed at hintz.org Tue Dec 13 11:23:32 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Tue Dec 13 11:24:00 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <5D533CAA-33C3-4059-95D4-6603CE0F509E@xtra.co.nz> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4EE558EA.1060304@hintz.org> <1323666882.65985.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5D533CAA-33C3-4059-95D4-6603CE0F509E@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EE67EE4.2080402@hintz.org> On 12/12/11 9:39 PM, Arrin & Jess Rozendaal wrote: > Some brigades have had issues where the FS have said you buy it you pay to keep and train on it... That included fuel servicing and maintenance. > > Generally though if say a defib was donated to you the FS does not normally have too many issues. East Coast Bays VFB has a defib donated by a community org but allows it to reside on the paid truck 831 and there have been no issues with training and upkeep. I'd wager a big part of it is cost of training and upkeep. AEDs don't cost too much for that. The one we have was donated by a community organization (they gave 3 of them from memory, so Porirua, Titahi Bay, and Plimmerton each ended up with one, and the FS has paid for upkeep/training). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From skweek at clear.net.nz Tue Dec 13 23:20:39 2011 From: skweek at clear.net.nz (skweek) Date: Tue Dec 13 23:21:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising Message-ID: <4ee726f7.33.4395.7822@clear.net.nz> Hi Allan, Unfortunately, the fire service is limited by the fire service act as to what it can pay for/supply. We have a Defib now paid for by a large business in this district and have it with the blessing of the nzfs BUT we have to pay for the maint and consumables, batteries and pads etc as we have been told "it's not core fire service business" Although we paid for the initial training, it will be covered in the 1st aid refresher courses from now on. Cheers, Squeak > There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years > purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds > raised within their communities or using grants from > charitable organisations. Examples of this have been > various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. > > My question is..... > > What are your views regarding operational equipment used > on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras > , lighting units, cutting gear etc) > > Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear > purchased by the community funds? > > If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to > spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it > on/purchase. > > It has been my long held thought that the?FS should > purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are > situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for > supply by NZFS. > > Thoughts...... > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Wed Dec 14 20:11:05 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Wed Dec 14 20:11:32 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- State of emergency in Nelson Message-ID: <02bc01ccba2f$9054af40$b0fe0dc0$@co.nz> http://nelsontasmancivildefence.co.nz/heavy-rain-update-7-declaration-of-eme rgency/ From owenpennell at clear.net.nz Thu Dec 15 07:28:14 2011 From: owenpennell at clear.net.nz (Owen Pennell) Date: Thu Dec 15 07:28:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Very large fire in Central Mall Rotorua - ZB News - Warehouse Stationary Message-ID: <67148B1D6C174781AB709EE5DF58E8D5@companydb89d90> From jonathonl at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 15 07:44:26 2011 From: jonathonl at xtra.co.nz (Jonathon Long) Date: Thu Dec 15 07:44:39 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Re: [nzfire] Very large fire in Central Mall Rotorua - ZB News - Warehouse Stationary In-Reply-To: <67148B1D6C174781AB709EE5DF58E8D5@companydb89d90> Message-ID: <1323888266.60054.YahooMailClassic@web96112.mail.aue.yahoo.com> currently sitting at a 4th alarm.? ? --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Owen Pennell wrote: From: Owen Pennell Subject: [nzfire] Very large fire in Central Mall Rotorua - ZB News - Warehouse Stationary To: nzfire@yahoogroups.com Cc: "VollyNet" Date: Thursday, 15, December, 2011, 7:28 AM ? ? __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use .. __,_._,___ From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 15 09:06:54 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Dec 15 09:07:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Message-ID: Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Dec 15 11:28:42 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Dec 15 11:28:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201ccbaaf$bd822d50$388687f0$@yahoo.co.nz> I think that they should lead the way, and all Area, Assistant Area, Region, Assistant Region Managers along with Station Officer and Senior Station Officer's of the PAID staff be subject to a 5 year term. One thing I noted with paid staff when I was a paid member, that there are many SO's, SSO's and Commanders (as they were called then) got to their level and sat with utmost complacency and went into cruise mode, because once they were there, there they were. Then, once they have done this, volunteer Officers could then follow suit. How many Officers CFO/DCFO's put a lifetime of dedication into the role they play for zero monetary gain.? All of them! If the paid staff have the same 5 year term, then surely this could be better swallowed by the volunteers. Is this another case of belittling the Volly's? Isnt it a Volunteer service? Why isn't the more senior ranks such as National Commander a volunteer role? Questions questions questions. My Questions that is. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011 9:07 a.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 13:25:04 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Thu Dec 15 13:25:34 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <004201ccbaaf$bd822d50$388687f0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <004201ccbaaf$bd822d50$388687f0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4ee93e69.596ee30a.1833.06ea@mx.google.com> As I understand it the same person can stand for re-appointment, so it's probably more of a weeding process rather than a measure of control or anything of that nature. You've got a good point, however I think the environment for paid executives and the like is somewhat different to a volunteer brigade, I'd imagine there are performance reviews and the like which achieve the same outcome as the proposed limited term for vollies. Some of the stuff coming from Mr Hall lately is kinda sensible and forward thinking, it's funny how it's all coming out now. I'm wondering what his motivation is? What's changed? - or is it simply just a "blah, I'm out of here anyway" attitude. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Adam Knezovic > Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:29 > To: 'VollyNet' > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I think that they should lead the way, and all Area, Assistant Area, > Region, > Assistant Region Managers along with Station Officer and Senior Station > Officer's of the PAID staff be subject to a 5 year term. > > One thing I noted with paid staff when I was a paid member, that there are > many SO's, SSO's and Commanders (as they were called then) got to their > level and sat with utmost complacency and went into cruise mode, because > once they were there, there they were. > > Then, once they have done this, volunteer Officers could then follow suit. > How many Officers CFO/DCFO's put a lifetime of dedication into the role > they > play for zero monetary gain.? All of them! > > If the paid staff have the same 5 year term, then surely this could be > better swallowed by the volunteers. Is this another case of belittling the > Volly's? Isnt it a Volunteer service? Why isn't the more senior ranks such > as National Commander a volunteer role? Questions questions questions. > > My Questions that is. > > > Thanks and regards From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Dec 15 14:04:54 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Dec 15 14:05:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4ee93e69.596ee30a.1833.06ea@mx.google.com> References: <004201ccbaaf$bd822d50$388687f0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4ee93e69.596ee30a.1833.06ea@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001ccbac5$91637600$b42a6200$@yahoo.co.nz> *****- or is it simply just a "blah, I'm out of here anyway" attitude***** LOL, funny how I thought of that too Anaru. -----Original Message----- From: Anaru Hartley [mailto:a.a.hartley@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011 1:25 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's As I understand it the same person can stand for re-appointment, so it's probably more of a weeding process rather than a measure of control or anything of that nature. You've got a good point, however I think the environment for paid executives and the like is somewhat different to a volunteer brigade, I'd imagine there are performance reviews and the like which achieve the same outcome as the proposed limited term for vollies. Some of the stuff coming from Mr Hall lately is kinda sensible and forward thinking, it's funny how it's all coming out now. I'm wondering what his motivation is? What's changed? - or is it simply just a "blah, I'm out of here anyway" attitude. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Adam Knezovic > Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011 11:29 > To: 'VollyNet' > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I think that they should lead the way, and all Area, Assistant Area, > Region, Assistant Region Managers along with Station Officer and > Senior Station Officer's of the PAID staff be subject to a 5 year > term. > > One thing I noted with paid staff when I was a paid member, that there > are many SO's, SSO's and Commanders (as they were called then) got to > their level and sat with utmost complacency and went into cruise mode, > because once they were there, there they were. > > Then, once they have done this, volunteer Officers could then follow suit. > How many Officers CFO/DCFO's put a lifetime of dedication into the > role they play for zero monetary gain.? All of them! > > If the paid staff have the same 5 year term, then surely this could be > better swallowed by the volunteers. Is this another case of belittling > the Volly's? Isnt it a Volunteer service? Why isn't the more senior > ranks such as National Commander a volunteer role? Questions questions questions. > > My Questions that is. > > > Thanks and regards From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Thu Dec 15 21:13:37 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Thu Dec 15 21:14:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: Message-ID: <7A236ED552004E269CE53DF9121B1853@SN2938977271> Good aye, only took him 10 years to do it after he first talked about it ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From skweek at clear.net.nz Thu Dec 15 22:09:43 2011 From: skweek at clear.net.nz (skweek) Date: Thu Dec 15 22:10:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Message-ID: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> I can definately see the good side of this as a tool to keep everyone up to scratch and also a chance for the brigade members to put their 2 cents worth into their view of CFO's performance. But it has been pointed out to me that this could work hand in hand with the proposed update of the Model Rules. You get the brigade tickin over nicely with a separate "Chair of the management committee" and then they decide that the current CFO and DCFO aren't up to their new standard during the review, stand them down and don't replace them, you end up with the volunteer version of the paid stations where the highest rank in any brigade will be SSO or SO...........probably just coincidence that these two things are mooted at the same time but the idea got me thinking. Squeak. ----- Original Message Follows ----- > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN > NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ Good aye, only took him 10 years to do it after he > first talked about it > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:06 AM > Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for > renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 22:43:58 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Thu Dec 15 22:44:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4ee9c166.0309e70a.13b4.ffffc31c@mx.google.com> I don't know if you could say that ending up with the paid area manager or whoever is a worst case scenario, in some cases I think, so long as whoever that person is has a good attitude towards volunteers, it could actually work in favour of volunteers as ultimately - if the structure remains the same - they've only got one vote in the scheme of things, but having someone that far up the food chain might, and I emphasis the might, mean better outcomes for volunteers where brigade level concerns are raised. I want to emphasis the might part again, as I think it'd take a pretty special breed of paid executive officer to weigh that one up - i.e. keep the union happy, keep their bosses happy, keep the vollies happy, and hold on to their job or progress through the ranks, without pissing anyone off. Actually, to be sexist for a minute; The NZFS should do a trial, promote a female to an exec position then put them in charge of a area where they assume the CFO role for all volly brigades in that area. I think it'd work with a female. Probably go down like a cup of cold sick! Just a thought. Which raises another thought - I'm aware of a female CFO here or there - are there, or has there ever been, any female execs? Consider the can of worms opened. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of skweek > Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011 22:10 > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > I can definately see the good side of this as a tool to keep > everyone up to scratch and also a chance for the brigade > members to put their 2 cents worth into their view of CFO's > performance. > > But it has been pointed out to me that this could work hand > in hand with the proposed update of the Model Rules. You get > the brigade tickin over nicely with a separate "Chair of the > management committee" and then they decide that the current > CFO and DCFO aren't up to their new standard during the > review, stand them down and don't replace them, you end up > with the volunteer version of the paid stations where the > highest rank in any brigade will be SSO or > SO...........probably just coincidence that these two things > are mooted at the same time but the idea got me thinking. > > Squeak. From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 16 06:31:54 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Fri Dec 16 06:32:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4ee9c166.0309e70a.13b4.ffffc31c@mx.google.com> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4ee9c166.0309e70a.13b4.ffffc31c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1323970314.2682.22.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> On Thu, 2011-12-15 at 22:43 +1300, Anaru Hartley wrote: > if the structure remains the same - they've only got one vote in the > scheme of things If the CFO is appointed from out side the Volunteer Brigade they get no vote. They will only be responsible for ensuring operational readiness, how the Brigade runs will still be with the brigade. The point I would make (while mounting my horse) is under the proposed model rules the CFO would have total control over who joins a brigade or more correctly who is put forward for the Brigade to vote on. From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Fri Dec 16 07:58:32 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (4kings@nettel.net.nz) Date: Fri Dec 16 07:58:45 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <20111215185918.50C1B8C5C0@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> Again one of the things Mike Hall mentioned early in his tenure. Why as a National fire servcie do we have 438 CFO's, there should technically only be one, his position. Call the OIC's of volunteer stations Captains, Sir whatever just not CFO's?? On Thu, December 15, 2011 10:09 pm, skweek wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I can definately see the good side of this as a tool to keep > everyone up to scratch and also a chance for the brigade members to put > their 2 cents worth into their view of CFO's performance. > > But it has been pointed out to me that this could work hand > in hand with the proposed update of the Model Rules. You get the brigade > tickin over nicely with a separate "Chair of the management committee" and > then they decide that the current CFO and DCFO aren't up to their new > standard during the review, stand them down and don't replace them, you > end up with the volunteer version of the paid stations where the highest > rank in any brigade will be SSO or SO...........probably just coincidence > that these two things are mooted at the same time but the idea got me > thinking. > > Squeak. > > > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN >> NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ Good aye, only took him 10 years to do it after he >> first talked about it ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tristan Saunders >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:06 AM >> Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING >> IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for >> renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From MRStewart at dow.com Fri Dec 16 08:02:59 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Fri Dec 16 08:03:36 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <20111215185918.50C1B8C5C0@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <20111215185918.50C1B8C5C0@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> Message-ID: Captain King doesn't sound too bad ?????? Mark the Lurker -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of 4kings@nettel.net.nz Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011 7:59 a.m. To: skweek@clear.net.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Again one of the things Mike Hall mentioned early in his tenure. Why as a National fire servcie do we have 438 CFO's, there should technically only be one, his position. Call the OIC's of volunteer stations Captains, Sir whatever just not CFO's?? On Thu, December 15, 2011 10:09 pm, skweek wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I can definately see the good side of this as a tool to keep > everyone up to scratch and also a chance for the brigade members to put > their 2 cents worth into their view of CFO's performance. > > But it has been pointed out to me that this could work hand > in hand with the proposed update of the Model Rules. You get the brigade > tickin over nicely with a separate "Chair of the management committee" and > then they decide that the current CFO and DCFO aren't up to their new > standard during the review, stand them down and don't replace them, you > end up with the volunteer version of the paid stations where the highest > rank in any brigade will be SSO or SO...........probably just coincidence > that these two things are mooted at the same time but the idea got me > thinking. > > Squeak. > > > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN >> NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ Good aye, only took him 10 years to do it after he >> first talked about it ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Tristan Saunders >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:06 AM >> Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING >> IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> Letter from Mike Hall to UFBA regarding his plan for >> renewable fixed terms for volunteer chiefs now on firenet >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Fri Dec 16 08:22:11 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Dec 16 08:22:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> Hi all, This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally going ahead. We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels good. I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't need much self-scrutiny. This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather addictive. Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form the life of many... most?... individual brigades. As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. Tony Sutorius From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 16 08:22:18 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 16 08:22:30 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <20111215185918.50C1B8C5C0@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <20111215185918.50C1B8C5C0@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> Message-ID: <4EEA48EA.2020705@hintz.org> On 12/15/11 10:58 AM, 4kings@nettel.net.nz wrote: > Again one of the things Mike Hall mentioned early in his tenure. Why as a > National fire servcie do we have 438 CFO's, there should technically only > be one, his position. Call the OIC's of volunteer stations Captains, Sir > whatever just not CFO's?? Call it grand poobah for all I care. If the rights and responsibilities are the same, who gives a rats ass what it's called? Mind you, the cost of changing everybody's uniforms and such seems to be incentive to leave well enough alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. One can argue that the method of elections/appointments, and the lack of terms, are signs of broken. But the name? So what. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From stantonfield at clear.net.nz Fri Dec 16 08:55:20 2011 From: stantonfield at clear.net.nz (stantonfield) Date: Fri Dec 16 08:55:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> Excellently opined Tony, Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. Simon East ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > going ahead. > > We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > need much self-scrutiny. > > This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. > For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather > addictive. > > Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to > stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form > the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise > the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > Tony Sutorius > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 From tony at sutorius.org Fri Dec 16 09:26:30 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Dec 16 09:26:35 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> Message-ID: <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> Hi Simon, Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their actions, regardless of their words! Tony On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Excellently opined Tony, > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > Simon East > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi all, >> >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally >> going ahead. >> >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. >> >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels >> good. >> >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't >> need much self-scrutiny. >> >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather >> addictive. >> >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >> >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >> >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >> >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >> >> Tony Sutorius >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Fri Dec 16 09:32:40 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Fri Dec 16 09:33:00 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> Message-ID: yup - good thoughts Tony. To (mis) quote FDR, The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". And Chief who feels threatened by this, should... I for one am pretty sure that my Chief would welcome it as a natural progression for the service, and because of which, there's not a chance that he';; get voted off (although I have to say, hand on heart, that's more a function of members apathy than anything else) b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > Hi Simon, > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a public > issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule change out of > the way first in case that got derailed. > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of five-yearly > accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone > explain why it should be a job for life, beyond accountability to either > the people who elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its > always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that recent > K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the simple > bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing the > chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor oil. > I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all politicians, real > understanding comes from carefully watching their actions, regardless of > their words! > > Tony > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> Excellently opined Tony, >> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. >> >> Simon East >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >> To: "VollyNet" >> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and >>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally >>> going ahead. >>> >>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, >>> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. >>> >>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, >>> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend >>> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local >>> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're >>> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels good. >>> >>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often >>> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing >>> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this >>> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves >>> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own >>> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades >>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since >>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't >>> need much self-scrutiny. >>> >>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in >>> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. >>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. >>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within >>> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather >>> addictive. >>> >>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to >>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and >>> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively >>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's >>> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying >>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >>> >>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this >>> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form >>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>> >>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise >>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >>> >>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >>> >>> Tony Sutorius >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**-------------------- >> >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 >> 18:34:00 >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 17 20:46:20 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sat Dec 17 20:46:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > From: tony@sutorius.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Simon, > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > actions, regardless of their words! > > Tony > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Excellently opined Tony, > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > Simon East > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > To: "VollyNet" > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi all, > >> > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > >> going ahead. > >> > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > >> > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > >> good. > >> > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > >> need much self-scrutiny. > >> > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather > >> addictive. > >> > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > >> > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > >> > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > >> > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > >> > >> Tony Sutorius > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shaun.sayer at xtra.co.nz Sun Dec 18 08:42:32 2011 From: shaun.sayer at xtra.co.nz (Shaun Sayer) Date: Sun Dec 18 08:42:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey (confidential??) which matches KPIs - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO one being developed. Shaun -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > From: tony@sutorius.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Simon, > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > actions, regardless of their words! > > Tony > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Excellently opined Tony, > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > Simon East > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > To: "VollyNet" > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi all, > >> > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > >> going ahead. > >> > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > >> > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > >> good. > >> > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > >> need much self-scrutiny. > >> > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and position. > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and rather > >> addictive. > >> > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw to > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > >> > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated form > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > >> > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to recognise > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > >> > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > >> > >> Tony Sutorius > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 From ben at diversity.net.nz Sun Dec 18 09:45:08 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Sun Dec 18 09:45:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Shaun I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer system no less... oh wait... b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > one being developed. > > Shaun > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on > the > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > never see the AM's > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good > job > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > be available for issues that may arise. > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > doesnt > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or > does > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone > 'jump' > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Simon, > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real > (and > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > >> going ahead. > > >> > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > >> > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > >> good. > > >> > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our > brigades > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > since > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > >> > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > position. > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > lives. > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > rather > > >> addictive. > > >> > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > to > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > aggressively > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just > parrying > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > >> > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > form > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > >> > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > recognise > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > >> > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > >> > > >> Tony Sutorius > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 11:00:55 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 11:01:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's position, or the position to be available. I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting on what they think too. In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta there, for what ever the reason. You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this what we need? How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and then when will the wages start to flow .....? There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? etc etc...... Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN HELL. I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't you? If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to have. The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to pay wages isn't it? Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Shaun I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer system no less... oh wait... b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > DCFO > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > DCFO one being developed. > > Shaun > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > Saunders > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > renewed? can someone 'jump' > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Simon, > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > >> real > (and > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > >> finally going ahead. > > >> > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > >> > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > >> > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > >> stay in our positions within our > brigades > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > since > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > >> > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > position. > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > lives. > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > >> appealing and > rather > > >> addictive. > > >> > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > >> claw > to > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > aggressively > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > >> just > parrying > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > >> > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > >> concentrated > form > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > >> > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > recognise > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > >> > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > >> > > >> Tony Sutorius > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > 12/16/11 > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > 12/17/11 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! 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Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Sun Dec 18 11:11:25 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Sun Dec 18 11:11:45 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: Adam "KPIs and shit that really relate to paid staff" So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to meet a minimum standard? So it's fine for vollies to take 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits for donning and startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid fireys"? Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go into house fires and be in the heat at hazmat incidents -- becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the paid guys"? Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of attitude is the sort of thing that we want to weed out from the service, that which says "we're vollies so we can be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm simply part of a team. That's the reason I stand with all the other firefighters during parade. But in the interests of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally happy with the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in that chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat reasonably soon. And I hope like hell that when I do I have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if and when some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, that there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced if it's the right thing to do. 'cos chances are that when I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and have the attitude that its a position for life - and that's precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... K47 /b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about > KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... > FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, > don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer >wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > > DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > > DCFO one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > > Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > > renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck > me > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > > >> real > > (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > > >> finally going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > > >> stay in our positions within our > > brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > > since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > > lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > > >> appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > > >> claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > > aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > > >> just > > parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > > >> concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > > 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > > 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Dec 18 11:25:46 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Dec 18 11:26:07 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EED16EA.4000703@blakjak.net> On 18/12/11 11:00, Adam Knezovic wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. This is true, but I would assert that the more enlightened don't necessarily want to be the boss, but simply want to see a layer of accountability installed. All managers, employers and senior officers (and i'm speaking in a generic sense here!) need standards to target/adhere to/uphold. The suggestions around KPIs, etc, seem to only seek to make these targets transparent and accessible to the general populace. I don't see this as a bad thing myself. > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. I think you're wrong in terms of 'introduce it to the paid staff first'. Firstly we've already established by way of TAPS that volly's need to be held to a standard of competence, or we'd be being reckless; Establishing (reasonable!) KPI's isn't that much of a step past the TAPS concept. Secondly, all paid employees i'm familiar with (and this from my own background, so I don't know specifically that this is true for Firefighters) are held to periodic performance reviews (annual at least) as the employer has a right to ensure they're getting what they're paying for. Every job i've had (in the IT sector) has entailed this, and it's entirely reasonable and expected. Do you know something I don't as to the level of professional assessment that career firefighters are held? I would be very surprised to hear that career NZFS staff aren't already held to some sort of annual performance target, measured against KPI's or their eqiuvalent. I stand ready to be corrected, however. > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? I again see nothing wrong with volly's being held to levels of accountability that befit the role and responsibility. Has nothing to do with wanting to be 'like the paid guys'. > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. This is another argument, though I understand this model works in some parts of the world; the senior officers are infact paid employees of the jurisdiction and on their downtime carry out the admin / maintenance work that volly's would struggle with due to their day jobs. I'm not necessarily advocating this has any relationship to the current developments here, just putting that out there. > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > Not sure what this has to do with the discussion around Fixed Terms for CFOs. To my mind one of the key things that (renewable) fixed terms will do is ensure that the Brigade remains satisfied with their leaders. And given that we are all volunteers, and not simply employees who have to 'put up' with the arrangements of their business directors, this seems entirely reasonable. I agree however that the opinions of some of the current and former CFO's in this group would be quite interesting to tally up. Just my humble $0.02. Mark. From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 11:37:48 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 11:38:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <001301ccbd0c$831aa340$894fe9c0$@yahoo.co.nz> Ben ? So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to meet a minimum standard? ? So it's fine for vollies to take 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits for donning and startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid fireys"? Ummm, where did I write that? ? Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go into house fires and be in the heat at hazmat incidents ? becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the paid guys"? or that? ? Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of attitude is the sort of thing that we want to weed out from the service, ? that which says "we're vollies so we can be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". You say ?we? like you talk for every one Ben, with the utmost respect Ben, I didn?t know you were the spokeperson for all Volunteers. ? For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm simply part of a team. That's the reason I stand with all the other firefighters during parade. But in the interests of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally happy with the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in that chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat reasonably soon. And I hope like hell that when I do I have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if and when some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, that there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced if it's the right thing to do. 'cos chances are that when I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and have the attitude that its a position for life - and that's precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... And I agree, but I also think there is more to it and needs more thought, but I also hope that if the CFO/DCFO?s have to comply with KPI?s and shit, so does the lowly SO and SSO, and if wanna do more work, then all credit to you *clapping hands*, go for it. K47 Message received . /b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's position, or the position to be available. I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting on what they think too. In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta there, for what ever the reason. You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this what we need? How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and then when will the wages start to flow .....? There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? etc etc...... Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN HELL. I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't you? If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to have. The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to pay wages isn't it? Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Shaun I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer system no less... oh wait... b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > DCFO > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > DCFO one being developed. > > Shaun > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > Saunders > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > renewed? can someone 'jump' > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Simon, > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > >> real > (and > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > >> finally going ahead. > > >> > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > >> > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > >> > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > >> stay in our positions within our > brigades > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > since > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > >> > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > position. > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > lives. > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > >> appealing and > rather > > >> addictive. > > >> > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > >> claw > to > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > aggressively > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > >> just > parrying > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > >> > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > >> concentrated > form > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > >> > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > recognise > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > >> > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > >> > > >> Tony Sutorius > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > 12/16/11 > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > 12/17/11 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 12:58:50 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 12:59:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, , <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, , <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, , <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , <000801ccbcf4$04ad9a70$0e08cf50$@sayer@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: All of those points are valid and fair, and why arent they being used/enforced already? I remember some discussion here with the introduction of the Area Manager role, rumoured to be to provide more support to volunteer brigades. So why hasnt that happened already? Doesnt give me much hope that it will happen all that well with the introduction of the fixed terms. And why should there be an incentive to perform. Maybe something that says one has done and exceptional job, but if they dont want to or feel they should meet the basic requirements of a person in their position, they shouldn't be there. > From: shaun.sayer@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 08:42:32 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & DCFO > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a DCFO > one being developed. > > Shaun > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of managing > their areas and the support they are supposed to give their brigades. Alot > of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking in on the > chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of the brigade, and review the > plans that the heirarchy have. I dont know about other brigades, but we > never see the AM's > An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure > the brigade itself could make an assessment, and as the position is > appointed, then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a good job > of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be > involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, offer advice and > be available for issues that may arise. > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and doesnt > make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head spot..? Or does > the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Simon, > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this issue > > has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been wanting to > > leave it till after the election in case it crossed over to became a > > public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model rule > > change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, honestly... AS > > LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of having their leaders > > chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone other than > > the chiefs themselves is likely to be upset by a little bit of > > five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated > > to hear anyone explain why it should be a job for life, beyond > > accountability to either the people who elected them or the Fire Service > > command hierarchy. Its always struck me as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond the > > simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just fluffing > > the chief's pillows before the administration of the compulsory castor > > oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully watching their > > actions, regardless of their words! > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's real (and > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its finally > > >> going ahead. > > >> > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in office, > > >> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their brigades. > > >> > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social rewards, > > >> both from each other and in our communities. This invisible dividend > > >> pays off every time we get a medal from the mayor, get in the local > > >> paper, every time a kid waves as we roar past in the fire truck. We're > > >> seen as important people doing unarguably positive things. It feels > > >> good. > > >> > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we often > > >> fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble figures doing > > >> great things for people in need, and to kid ourselves that we do this > > >> entirely selflessly. We are thereby very prone to convincing ourselves > > >> that we are terribly important and irreplaceable, and that our own > > >> motives for anything we do to stay in our positions within our brigades > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, since > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and don't > > >> need much self-scrutiny. > > >> > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures in > > >> many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > position. > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their lives. > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both within > > >> the brigade and the community at large, are clearly appealing and > rather > > >> addictive. > > >> > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and claw > to > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy and > > >> ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be aggressively > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is God's > > >> work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its just parrying > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > >> > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes this > > >> mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in concentrated > form > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > >> > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > recognise > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > >> > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > >> > > >> Tony Sutorius > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: 12/16/11 > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 13:20:08 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 13:20:23 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz>, Message-ID: From: tds_4@hotmail.com To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 13:05:02 +1300 Adam I hear your sentiment. But there has to be a minimum standard for the performance of the people who are given and accept the responsibility of being the manager of an organisation such as a Fire Brigade. I dont know anything about your brigade and how you run it or the feelings of your crew, but guaranteed there are brigades out there that are suffering a woeful disservice by their 'leaders'. I know a few of them myself. Maybe KPI is the wrong term. the survey of crew could be more beneficial, and a better look at the operational capability ie: training. There are plenty of people in brigades who dont want to be chiefs, but certainly know how one shouldnt be doing things, or who could do things better. Again, the point of the Area Managers (paid CFOs) originally rumoured to be to provide more management support, that hasnt eventuated at all.. > From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:00:55 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > > DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > > DCFO one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > > Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > > renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > > >> real > > (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > > >> finally going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > > >> stay in our positions within our > > brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > > since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > > lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > > >> appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > > >> claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > > aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > > >> just > > parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > > >> concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > > 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > > 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 13:20:43 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 13:21:01 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz>, , <001301ccbd0c$831aa340$894fe9c0$@yahoo.co.nz>, Message-ID: I would hope that CFO/DCFO's instill briefs and tasks for SOs and SSOs to do around station and management of things. Called delegation, means training, allows progression. > From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > To: ben@diversity.net.nz; vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:37:48 +1300 > CC: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Ben > > > > ? So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to meet a minimum > standard? > > > > ? So it's fine for vollies to take 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits > for donning and startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid > fireys"? > > > > Ummm, where did I write that? > > > > ? Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go into house fires > and be in the heat at hazmat incidents > > > > ? becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the paid guys"? > > > > or that? > > > > ? Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of attitude is the sort > of thing that we want to weed out from the service, > > > > ? that which says "we're vollies so we can be crap at the job becuase we're > not paid to do it". > > > > You say ?we? like you talk for every one Ben, with the utmost respect Ben, I > didn?t know you were the spokeperson for all Volunteers. > > > > ? For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm simply part of > a team. That's the reason I stand with all the other firefighters during > parade. But in the interests of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally > happy with the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in that > chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat reasonably soon. And I hope > like hell that when I do I have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if > and when some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, that there's > a system in place whereby I can be replaced if it's the right thing to do. > 'cos chances are that when I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and > have the attitude that its a position for life - and that's precisely the > problem that we're trying to overcome... > > > > And I agree, but I also think there is more to it and needs more thought, > but I also hope that if the CFO/DCFO?s have to comply with KPI?s and shit, > so does the lowly SO and SSO, and if wanna do more work, then all credit to > you *clapping hands*, go for it. > > > > > > K47 > > > > Message received . > > > > /b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic > wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M > 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > > DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > > DCFO one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > > Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > > renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > > >> real > > (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > > >> finally going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > > >> stay in our positions within our > > brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > > since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > > lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > > >> appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > > >> claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > > aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > > >> just > > parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > > >> concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > > 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > > 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 13:25:16 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 13:25:40 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <005701ccbd1b$85e8b990$91ba2cb0$@yahoo.co.nz> From: Adam Knezovic [mailto:adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 1:17 p.m. To: 'Tristan Saunders' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Hi Tristan, I totally agree with you. 100%. As you may well be aware, I am ex-paid. I actually have no problems with a 5 year term. A lot of CFO/DCFO's probably don't either as one can be locked into the position (I have just done 6 years) and see no way out .. the moment anyway, because I care too much for my brigade to leave it without me. I know that sounds vain, but I feel I have a responsibility and I have standards, and follow SOP's etc etc and require competency.. Having a bunch of Volunteers under me, it is difficult to have the standards without causing grief (in some cases) and finding those suitable to be a member and then rise through the ranks. I have a focus, you see, I don't know why this is come about when there are paid SO/SSO's (volly CFO/DCFO's are basically these ranks) who get to the rank and just sit. Now days, without what was 'routine hours' the paid crew can dot the I's and cross the t's and then just cruise. My focus is them having a 5 year term whereby they are subject to the same scrutiny that it appears the NC wants volley CFO/DCFO's to have. I mean, imagine the crew of a paid station having a say in their SO's performance.. do you think that would come about? I dunno, but worth a crack I say. And then in reality, I am just trying to stir up some debate, and get everyone debating, this is what VollyNet is for right? Cheers bro. Thanks and regards From: Tristan Saunders [mailto:tds_4@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 1:05 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Adam I hear your sentiment. But there has to be a minimum standard for the performance of the people who are given and accept the responsibility of being the manager of an organisation such as a Fire Brigade. I dont know anything about your brigade and how you run it or the feelings of your crew, but guaranteed there are brigades out there that are suffering a woeful disservice by their 'leaders'. I know a few of them myself. Maybe KPI is the wrong term. the survey of crew could be more beneficial, and a better look at the operational capability ie: training. There are plenty of people in brigades who dont want to be chiefs, but certainly know how one shouldnt be doing things, or who could do things better. Again, the point of the Area Managers (paid CFOs) originally rumoured to be to provide more management support, that hasnt eventuated at all.. > From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:00:55 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > > DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > > DCFO one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > > Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > > renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > > >> real > > (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > > >> finally going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > > >> stay in our positions within our > > brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > > since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > > lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > > >> appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > > >> claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > > aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > > >> just > > parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > > >> concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > > 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > > 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 13:27:00 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 13:27:21 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz>, , <001301ccbd0c$831aa340$894fe9c0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <005c01ccbd1b$c39a7cb0$4acf7610$@yahoo.co.nz> From: Adam Knezovic [mailto:adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 1:20 p.m. To: 'Tristan Saunders' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's On the other side of the coin, some CFO/DCFO?s put a lot of time and effort into their station and in some cases can make them unpopular even though they are doing a fantastic job in making the brigade efficient and effective, this means that members can effectively get rid of them because they haven?t shouted enough beers or made the lower ranks do things they don?t really want to do such as briefs/tasks or comply with the CFO?s request or standards .. I reckon that if you are appointed, you are appointed unless the AM or RM find that you are not up to scratch. But what will be will be I guess. Thanks and regards From: Tristan Saunders [mailto:tds_4@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 1:10 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's I would hope that CFO/DCFO's instill briefs and tasks for SOs and SSOs to do around station and management of things. Called delegation, means training, allows progression. > From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > To: ben@diversity.net.nz; vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:37:48 +1300 > CC: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Ben > > > > ? So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to meet a minimum > standard? > > > > ? So it's fine for vollies to take 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits > for donning and startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid > fireys"? > > > > Ummm, where did I write that? > > > > ? Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go into house fires > and be in the heat at hazmat incidents > > > > ? becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the paid guys"? > > > > or that? > > > > ? Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of attitude is the sort > of thing that we want to weed out from the service, > > > > ? that which says "we're vollies so we can be crap at the job becuase we're > not paid to do it". > > > > You say ?we? like you talk for every one Ben, with the utmost respect Ben, I > didn?t know you were the spokeperson for all Volunteers. > > > > ? For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm simply part of > a team. That's the reason I stand with all the other firefighters during > parade. But in the interests of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally > happy with the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in that > chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat reasonably soon. And I hope > like hell that when I do I have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if > and when some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, that there's > a system in place whereby I can be replaced if it's the right thing to do. > 'cos chances are that when I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and > have the attitude that its a position for life - and that's precisely the > problem that we're trying to overcome... > > > > And I agree, but I also think there is more to it and needs more thought, > but I also hope that if the CFO/DCFO?s have to comply with KPI?s and shit, > so does the lowly SO and SSO, and if wanna do more work, then all credit to > you *clapping hands*, go for it. > > > > > > K47 > > > > Message received . > > > > /b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic > wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M > 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > > DCFO > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > > (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > > performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > > - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > > DCFO one being developed. > > > > Shaun > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > > Saunders > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > > managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > > brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > > managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > > of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > > know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > > of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > > itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > > enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > > good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > > needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > > This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > > policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > > doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > > renewed? can someone 'jump' > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Simon, > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > > > issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > > > strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > > > wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > > > to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > > > and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > > > honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > > > having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > > > see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > > > real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > > > be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > > > recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > > > the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > > > fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > > > compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > > > As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Excellently opined Tony, > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Hi all, > > > >> > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > > > >> real > > (and > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > > > >> finally going ahead. > > > >> > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > > > >> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > > > >> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > > > >> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > > > >> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > > > >> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > > > >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > > > >> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > > > >> > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > > > >> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > > > >> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > > > >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > > > >> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > > > >> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > > > >> stay in our positions within our > > brigades > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > > since > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > > > >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > >> > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > > > >> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > > position. > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > > lives. > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > > > >> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > > > >> appealing and > > rather > > > >> addictive. > > > >> > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > > > >> claw > > to > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > > > >> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > > aggressively > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > > > >> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > > > >> just > > parrying > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > > > >> > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > > > >> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > > > >> concentrated > > form > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > >> > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > > recognise > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > > > >> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > > > >> > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > > > >> > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > > > > 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > > 12/16/11 > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > > 12/17/11 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Dec 18 14:02:06 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Dec 18 14:02:30 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <005701ccbd1b$85e8b990$91ba2cb0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> <005701ccbd1b$85e8b990$91ba2cb0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EED3B8E.9020107@blakjak.net> On 18/12/11 13:25, Adam Knezovic wrote: > I have a focus, you see, I don't know why this is come about when there are > paid SO/SSO's (volly CFO/DCFO's are basically these ranks) who get to the um.. what? A Volly CFO is the equivalent of a Paid SO? I'd be willing to consider a rough level of equivalence between a Paid SSO and a Volly CFO, barely. > rank and just sit. Now days, without what was 'routine hours' the paid crew > can dot the I's and cross the t's and then just cruise. My focus is them > having a 5 year term whereby they are subject to the same scrutiny that it > appears the NC wants volley CFO/DCFO's to have. Have you had a closer look at the way the Military operates? After all that's where the ranking and chain-of-command originate in many respects. Consider that: - Military NCO's can spend most of their career at the Corporal(E) or Sergeant(E) position if they're satisfied with the role in all respects. This doesn't have to be a negative thing. And yet a Sergeant(E) can have several lower-ranks reporting to them. - Military Commissioned Oficers can likewise top out at Lieutenant(E) for a raft of reasons, though this is less common... usually you would have progressed to that rank over the course of several years and if you're going to see out your 15 or 20 year tenure, will frequently wind up at a Major(E) level (2 ranks higher).... going beyond this tends to require more particular abilities, drive and performance-related assessment, though this is true of all promotions. (NZFS draws direct comparison between the ranks of Station Officer (1 Pip; Equivalent to 2nd Lieutenant or Equivalent), Senior Station Officer (2 Pips, same as Lieutenant or Equivalent), Assistant Area Manager (3 Pips, same as Captain or Equivalent). There's a deliberate synergy in rank markings.[1][2]) (Similarly it could be argued that the 2-stripe Senior Firefighter is equivalent to the 2-Chevron Corporal(E).) [1] http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/corporate/badges-of-rank/default.htm for reference. [2] Look up NZFS documents N1, N2b and National Notice 25/2009 which specifically notes "... rank markings ... reflect relativity with Police and military levels". What the Military does, and the NZFS can less do, is ensure that staff are 'posted' between roles every 3-4 years, to avoid people getting 'stagnant' in their roles. I don't know if the Career NZFS can do similar with this, I do believe it's common at the senior management level for people to move between various staff jobs... (Disclosure: I'm a former member of the NZDF civilian staff, and my father is ex RNZAF.) My point with the above is that you don't hire permanent employees into fixed-term roles. That's called a Fixed Term Contract. If you're employing someone, then you're employing them; sure you can require them to meet performance standards but you can't arbitrarily install a deadline on their role unless it's outlined in the contract. I don't see the value, given the performance-managment options described herein? > I mean, imagine the crew of a paid station having a say in their SO's > performance.. do you think that would come about? I dunno, but worth a crack > I say. All subordinate employees can report issues with their immediate superior to the person the next level above. This then can be handled as performance management. You want to be careful you don't undermine the rank, authority and responsibility by encouraging the subordinates to over-critique and challenge responsibility. They need to work within the chain of command and the means provided to them to escalate concerns. It's common practise to solicit feedback from subordinate employees at the time of the annual review. I'm not aware of anything similar within the NZFS volunteer ranks at the present, which is why arranging some sort of KPI or equivalent for volunteer leadership doesn't seem unreasonable to this layman. Mark. From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 15:20:32 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 15:20:50 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4EED3B8E.9020107@blakjak.net> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> <005701ccbd1b$85e8b990$91ba2cb0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EED3B8E.9020107@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <007f01ccbd2b$a07b4ba0$e171e2e0$@yahoo.co.nz> -----Original Message----- From: Mark Foster [mailto:blakjak@blakjak.net] Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 2:02 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's On 18/12/11 13:25, Adam Knezovic wrote: >> I have a focus, you see, I don't know why this is come about when >> there are paid SO/SSO's (volly CFO/DCFO's are basically these ranks) >> who get to the >um.. what? A Volly CFO is the equivalent of a Paid SO? >I'd be willing to consider a rough level of equivalence between a Paid SSO and a Volly CFO, barely. Yes Mark, a volley CFO is in charge of one, maybe two stations ..... at best three, a paid SO is in charge of one, a paid SSO is in charge of maybe three From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 15:25:28 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 15:25:49 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO Message-ID: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> Ok, it is all about accountability is it? So, something to further the debate. Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of action that you can take. Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? You have the ability to inform the AM or RM now as a brigade. I ask you, why do you feel the need for change when you have the ability now? Why ask that the AM or RM be the ones to judge, when the brigade now has the ability to decide and make recommendations. Just a question BTW, please don't take it personally. Rules of Association; 8 Dissatisfaction with Chief Fire Officer or Deputy 8.1 If the Brigade is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer, the following procedure must be followed: (a) A notice of motion signed by not less than one third of the Members, seeking a resolution of the Brigade that it is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer must be delivered to the Secretary of the Management Committee. The notice must contain full and precise details of the reasons for the signatories' dissatisfaction. (b) Upon receipt of a notice under paragraph (a) of this rule, the Secretary of the Management Committee must call a special meeting of the Brigade to consider the motion (c) Notice of the special meeting must be given to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be) together with full and precise details of the reasons for the motion. (d) At the special meeting the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer (as the case may be) must be given a reasonable opportunity to respond (in writing or verbally) to the reasons for the motion. 8.2 If the resolution is passed by a majority of the Members attending the special meeting, a further resolution may be passed (again by majority) that the Brigade recommend to the Regional Manager that disciplinary proceedings be commenced in relation to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). Any recommendation to the Regional Manager must include full and precise details of the reasons for the Brigade's dissatisfaction with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 15:41:21 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 15:41:35 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz>, Message-ID: I would much rather the dissatisfaction come from above than below. especially if i was among the 'belows'. Again, why havnt the AMs been doing this anyway! Maybe the UFBA or us member brigades could suggest that their has always been an ability to address leadership issues via the AM but they havnt been up to scratch. How are they assessed? tick the boxes? maybe those boxes arent specific enough/too easy. everyone must be thinking along the same lines, no comments. Or are AMs watching........... do do do do do do do do > From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:25:28 +1300 > Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ok, it is all about accountability is it? So, something to further the > debate. > > > > Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of > action that you can take. > > Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? > > > > You have the ability to inform the AM or RM now as a brigade. I ask you, why > do you feel the need for change when you have the ability now? > > Why ask that the AM or RM be the ones to judge, when the brigade now has the > ability to decide and make recommendations. > > Just a question BTW, please don't take it personally. > > > > Rules of Association; > > > > 8 Dissatisfaction with Chief Fire Officer or Deputy > > 8.1 If the Brigade is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire > Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer, the following procedure must be > followed: > > (a) A notice of motion signed by not less than one third of the Members, > seeking a resolution of the Brigade that it is dissatisfied with the > performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer must be > delivered to the Secretary of the Management Committee. The notice must > contain full and precise details of the reasons for the signatories' > dissatisfaction. > > (b) Upon receipt of a notice under paragraph (a) of this rule, the Secretary > of the Management Committee must call a special meeting of the Brigade to > consider the motion > > (c) Notice of the special meeting must be given to the Chief Fire Officer or > Deputy (as the case may be) together with full and precise details of the > reasons for the motion. > > (d) At the special meeting the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire > Officer (as the case may be) must be given a reasonable opportunity to > respond (in writing or verbally) to the reasons for the motion. > > 8.2 If the resolution is passed by a majority of the Members attending the > special meeting, a further resolution may be passed (again by majority) that > the Brigade recommend to the Regional Manager that disciplinary proceedings > be commenced in relation to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case > may be). Any recommendation to the Regional Manager must include full and > precise details of the reasons for the Brigade's dissatisfaction with the > performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Sun Dec 18 19:18:37 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Sun Dec 18 19:19:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: Well said Adam Sent from my iPhone On 18/12/2011, at 11:00 AM, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > position, or the position to be available. > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > on what they think too. > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > there, for what ever the reason. > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > what we need? > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > then when will the wages start to flow .....? > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > etc etc...... > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > HELL. > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > you? > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > have. > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > pay wages isn't it? > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Shaun > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > system no less... > > oh wait... > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: >> >> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & >> DCFO >> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey >> (confidential??) which matches KPIs >> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until >> performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job >> - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? >> >> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a >> DCFO one being developed. >> >> Shaun >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan >> Saunders >> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of >> managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their >> brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these >> managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health >> of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont >> know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction >> of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade >> itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, >> then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that >> enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a >> good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM >> needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, >> offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. >> This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new >> policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and >> doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head >> spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not >> renewed? can someone 'jump' >> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? >> >> There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. >> >> >>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 >>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Simon, >>> >>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this >>> issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a >>> strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been >>> wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over >>> to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference >>> and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. >>> >>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, >>> honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of >>> having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to >>> see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be >>> upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the >>> real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should >>> be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who >>> elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > as a bizarre anachronism. >>> >>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that >>> recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond >>> the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just >>> fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the >>> compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. >>> As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully >>> watching their actions, regardless of their words! >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Excellently opined Tony, >>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. >>>> >>>> Simon East >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >>>> >>>> To: "VollyNet" >>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>> >>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's >>>>> real >> (and >>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its >>>>> finally going ahead. >>>>> >>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >>>>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in >>>>> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > brigades. >>>>> >>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social >>>>> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This >>>>> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the >>>>> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar >>>>> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing >>>>> unarguably positive things. It feels good. >>>>> >>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we >>>>> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble >>>>> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid >>>>> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby >>>>> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important >>>>> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to >>>>> stay in our positions within our >> brigades >>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, >> since >>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and >>>>> don't need much self-scrutiny. >>>>> >>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures >>>>> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and >> position. >>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their >> lives. >>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both >>>>> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly >>>>> appealing and >> rather >>>>> addictive. >>>>> >>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and >>>>> claw >> to >>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy >>>>> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be >> aggressively >>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is >>>>> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its >>>>> just >> parrying >>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes >>>>> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in >>>>> concentrated >> form >>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>>>> >>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to >> recognise >>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >>>>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >>>>> >>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >>>>> >>>>> Tony Sutorius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> ---- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: >>>> 09/09/10 18:34:00 >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: >> 12/16/11 >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: >> 12/17/11 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Sun Dec 18 19:24:42 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Sun Dec 18 19:25:07 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <0D1D57DE-6581-44EA-8EF2-D6A530CF87BF@trainforsafety.co.nz> Who's to say that the standard is not being meet for those of you that live in the back block that may be do live on the doorstep of Auckland and you have to meet the standard our CFO and officers insist on it Sent from my iPhone On 18/12/2011, at 1:20 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: tds_4@hotmail.com > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 13:05:02 +1300 > > > > > > > > Adam I hear your sentiment. But there has to be a minimum standard for the performance of the people who are given and accept the responsibility of being the manager of an organisation such as a Fire Brigade. I dont know anything about your brigade and how you run it or the feelings of your crew, but guaranteed there are brigades out there that are suffering a woeful disservice by their 'leaders'. I know a few of them myself. > Maybe KPI is the wrong term. the survey of crew could be more beneficial, and a better look at the operational capability ie: training. > There are plenty of people in brigades who dont want to be chiefs, but certainly know how one shouldnt be doing things, or who could do things better. > Again, the point of the Area Managers (paid CFOs) originally rumoured to be to provide more management support, that hasnt eventuated at all.. > > > >> From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:00:55 +1300 >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? >> >> It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's >> position, or the position to be available. >> >> I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting >> on what they think too. >> >> In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only >> have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone >> else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta >> there, for what ever the reason. >> >> You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff >> ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? >> This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this >> what we need? >> >> How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and >> then when will the wages start to flow .....? >> >> There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? >> etc etc...... >> >> Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our >> community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to >> comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, >> introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the >> Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys >> about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN >> HELL. >> >> I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. >> Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't >> you? >> >> If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying >> CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to >> have. >> >> The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to >> pay wages isn't it? >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes >> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Shaun >> >> I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the >> brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership >> before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend >> the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year >> veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly >> going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly >> going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer >> system no less... >> >> oh wait... >> >> b >> >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web >> www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: >>> >>> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & >>> DCFO >>> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey >>> (confidential??) which matches KPIs >>> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until >>> performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job >>> - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? >>> >>> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a >>> DCFO one being developed. >>> >>> Shaun >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan >>> Saunders >>> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of >>> managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their >>> brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these >>> managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health >>> of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont >>> know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction >>> of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade >>> itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, >>> then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that >>> enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a >>> good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM >>> needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, >>> offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. >>> This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new >>> policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and >>> doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head >>> spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not >>> renewed? can someone 'jump' >>> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? >>> >>> There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. >>> >>> >>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Simon, >>>> >>>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this >>>> issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a >>>> strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been >>>> wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over >>>> to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference >>>> and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. >>>> >>>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, >>>> honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of >>>> having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to >>>> see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be >>>> upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the >>>> real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should >>>> be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who >>>> elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me >> as a bizarre anachronism. >>>> >>>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that >>>> recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond >>>> the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just >>>> fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the >>>> compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. >>>> As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully >>>> watching their actions, regardless of their words! >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Excellently opined Tony, >>>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. >>>>> >>>>> Simon East >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >>>>> >>>>> To: "VollyNet" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's >>>>>> real >>> (and >>>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its >>>>>> finally going ahead. >>>>>> >>>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >>>>>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in >>>>>> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their >> brigades. >>>>>> >>>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social >>>>>> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This >>>>>> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the >>>>>> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar >>>>>> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing >>>>>> unarguably positive things. It feels good. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we >>>>>> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble >>>>>> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid >>>>>> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby >>>>>> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important >>>>>> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to >>>>>> stay in our positions within our >>> brigades >>>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, >>> since >>>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and >>>>>> don't need much self-scrutiny. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures >>>>>> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and >>> position. >>>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their >>> lives. >>>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both >>>>>> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly >>>>>> appealing and >>> rather >>>>>> addictive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and >>>>>> claw >>> to >>>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy >>>>>> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be >>> aggressively >>>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is >>>>>> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its >>>>>> just >>> parrying >>>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes >>>>>> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in >>>>>> concentrated >>> form >>>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>>>>> >>>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to >>> recognise >>>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >>>>>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony Sutorius >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ >>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: >>>>> 09/09/10 18:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: >>> 12/16/11 >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: >>> 12/17/11 >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion >> only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Sun Dec 18 20:08:38 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:08:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <1324192118.91968.YahooMailNeo@web112502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The problem in the past with the section 8 action is the issue of who chairs the meeting. Having the DCFO or CFO chair the meeting is absurd when it is them that the meeting is about. Pretty sure a remit was put to have that rectified but can't remember if it was passed or not. 18 December 2011 3:25 PM Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, it is all about accountability is it? So, something to further the debate. Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of action that you can take. Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? You have the ability to inform the AM or RM now as a brigade. I ask you, why do you feel the need for change when you have the ability now? Why ask that the AM or RM be the ones to judge, when the brigade now has the ability to decide and make recommendations. Just a question BTW, please don't take it personally.? Rules of Association; 8 Dissatisfaction with Chief Fire Officer or Deputy 8.1 If the Brigade is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer, the following procedure must be followed: (a) A notice of motion signed by not less than one third of the Members, seeking a resolution of the Brigade that it is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer must be delivered to the Secretary of the Management Committee. The notice must contain full and precise details of the reasons for the signatories' dissatisfaction. (b) Upon receipt of a notice under paragraph (a) of this rule, the Secretary of the Management Committee must call a special meeting of the Brigade to consider the motion (c) Notice of the special meeting must be given to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be) together with full and precise details of the reasons for the motion. (d) At the special meeting the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer (as the case may be) must be given a reasonable opportunity to respond (in writing or verbally) to the reasons for the motion. 8.2 If the resolution is passed by a majority of the Members attending the special meeting, a further resolution may be passed (again by majority) that the Brigade recommend to the Regional Manager that disciplinary proceedings be commenced in relation to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). Any recommendation to the Regional Manager must include full and precise details of the reasons for the Brigade's dissatisfaction with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 20:19:52 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:20:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <0D1D57DE-6581-44EA-8EF2-D6A530CF87BF@trainforsafety.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz>, <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org>, <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC>, <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org>, , <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz>, , , <0D1D57DE-6581-44EA-8EF2-D6A530CF87BF@trainforsafety.co.nz> Message-ID: ahhh what? Thats the point. Location doesnt matter. There needs to be checks n balances that people are fulfilling their duty.. Backblocks just as much as front ones.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > From: shayne@trainforsafety.co.nz > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 19:24:42 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Who's to say that the standard is not being meet for those of you that live in the back block that may be do live on the doorstep of Auckland and you have to meet the standard our CFO and officers insist on it > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 18/12/2011, at 1:20 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > From: tds_4@hotmail.com > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 13:05:02 +1300 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adam I hear your sentiment. But there has to be a minimum standard for the performance of the people who are given and accept the responsibility of being the manager of an organisation such as a Fire Brigade. I dont know anything about your brigade and how you run it or the feelings of your crew, but guaranteed there are brigades out there that are suffering a woeful disservice by their 'leaders'. I know a few of them myself. > > Maybe KPI is the wrong term. the survey of crew could be more beneficial, and a better look at the operational capability ie: training. > > There are plenty of people in brigades who dont want to be chiefs, but certainly know how one shouldnt be doing things, or who could do things better. > > Again, the point of the Area Managers (paid CFOs) originally rumoured to be to provide more management support, that hasnt eventuated at all.. > > > > > > > >> From: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > >> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:00:55 +1300 > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > >> > >> It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's > >> position, or the position to be available. > >> > >> I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting > >> on what they think too. > >> > >> In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only > >> have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone > >> else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta > >> there, for what ever the reason. > >> > >> You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff > >> ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? > >> This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this > >> what we need? > >> > >> How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and > >> then when will the wages start to flow .....? > >> > >> There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about KPI's? > >> etc etc...... > >> > >> Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our > >> community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to > >> comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > >> introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the > >> Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys > >> about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... FARKEN > >> HELL. > >> > >> I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. > >> Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, don't > >> you? > >> > >> If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying > >> CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to > >> have. > >> > >> The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to > >> pay wages isn't it? > >> > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes > >> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Shaun > >> > >> I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the > >> brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership > >> before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > >> the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year > >> veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly > >> going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly > >> going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer > >> system no less... > >> > >> oh wait... > >> > >> b > >> > >> > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web > >> www.diversity.net.nz > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: > >>> > >>> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO & > >>> DCFO > >>> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey > >>> (confidential??) which matches KPIs > >>> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until > >>> performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job > >>> - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? > >>> > >>> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a > >>> DCFO one being developed. > >>> > >>> Shaun > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan > >>> Saunders > >>> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of > >>> managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their > >>> brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these > >>> managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health > >>> of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont > >>> know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction > >>> of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade > >>> itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > >>> then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that > >>> enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a > >>> good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM > >>> needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > >>> offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. > >>> This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new > >>> policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and > >>> doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > >>> spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not > >>> renewed? can someone 'jump' > >>> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > >>> > >>> There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Hi Simon, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this > >>>> issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a > >>>> strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been > >>>> wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over > >>>> to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference > >>>> and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. > >>>> > >>>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, > >>>> honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of > >>>> having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to > >>>> see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > >>>> upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the > >>>> real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should > >>>> be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who > >>>> elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck me > >> as a bizarre anachronism. > >>>> > >>>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that > >>>> recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond > >>>> the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just > >>>> fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the > >>>> compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. > >>>> As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > >>>> watching their actions, regardless of their words! > >>>> > >>>> Tony > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> Excellently opined Tony, > >>>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Simon East > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > >>>>> > >>>>> To: "VollyNet" > >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's > >>>>>> real > >>> (and > >>>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its > >>>>>> finally going ahead. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and > >>>>>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in > >>>>>> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > >> brigades. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social > >>>>>> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This > >>>>>> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the > >>>>>> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar > >>>>>> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing > >>>>>> unarguably positive things. It feels good. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we > >>>>>> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble > >>>>>> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid > >>>>>> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby > >>>>>> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important > >>>>>> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to > >>>>>> stay in our positions within our > >>> brigades > >>>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, > >>> since > >>>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and > >>>>>> don't need much self-scrutiny. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures > >>>>>> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and > >>> position. > >>>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their > >>> lives. > >>>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both > >>>>>> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly > >>>>>> appealing and > >>> rather > >>>>>> addictive. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and > >>>>>> claw > >>> to > >>>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy > >>>>>> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be > >>> aggressively > >>>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is > >>>>>> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its > >>>>>> just > >>> parrying > >>>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes > >>>>>> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in > >>>>>> concentrated > >>> form > >>>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to > >>> recognise > >>>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and > >>>>>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony Sutorius > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> ------ > >>> ---- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. > >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: > >>>>> 09/09/10 18:34:00 > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>>> > >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ----- > >>> No virus found in this message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: > >>> 12/16/11 > >>> ----- > >>> No virus found in this message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: > >>> 12/17/11 > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Dec 18 20:30:25 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:30:44 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <007f01ccbd2b$a07b4ba0$e171e2e0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>, , <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> <005701ccbd1b$85e8b990$91ba2cb0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4EED3B8E.9020107@blakjak.net> <007f01ccbd2b$a07b4ba0$e171e2e0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EED9691.6070509@blakjak.net> On 18/12/11 15:20, Adam Knezovic wrote: >> um.. what? A Volly CFO is the equivalent of a Paid SO? >> I'd be willing to consider a rough level of equivalence between a Paid SSO > and a Volly CFO, barely. > > Yes Mark, a volley CFO is in charge of one, maybe two stations ..... at best > three, a paid SO is in charge of one, a paid SSO is in charge of maybe > three > If we're talking career fire stations I don't see it quite that way. A Career SO is in charge of 3 other FFs. A Volunteer SO shares command of all subordinate FF's in their brigade with the rest of the Officers, and operationally may be in charge of several more than 3. A Career SSO is in charge of his own crew plus perhaps 2 or 3 other SO-led watches at neighbouring stations. A Volunteer SSO is in charge of the entire volunteer brigade short of the CFO/DCFO and any other SSOs. Probably a similar number of pers. overall. When it comes to operations, a career SSO may be better equipped in some circumstances than a Volunteer CFO/DCFO, but the SSO probably doesn't carry the other responsibilities that VEO's carry in the context of the Fire District and the Fire Station itself, which is why I struggle to see a career SSO as their equivalent. That's the rationale for my perspective, but i'm going to steer away from areas that I am not qualified to comment on, now. :-) Mark. From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Sun Dec 18 20:38:08 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:38:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <1324192118.91968.YahooMailNeo@web112502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> <1324192118.91968.YahooMailNeo@web112502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a201ccbd57$fed61870$fc824950$@yahoo.co.nz> The way I read it, is the secretary would chair this special meeting Of course it would be absurd to have the CFO/DCFO chair this meeting. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 8:09 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- The problem in the past with the section 8 action is the issue of who chairs the meeting. Having the DCFO or CFO chair the meeting is absurd when it is them that the meeting is about. Pretty sure a remit was put to have that rectified but can't remember if it was passed or not. 18 December 2011 3:25 PM Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, it is all about accountability is it? So, something to further the debate. Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of action that you can take. Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? You have the ability to inform the AM or RM now as a brigade. I ask you, why do you feel the need for change when you have the ability now? Why ask that the AM or RM be the ones to judge, when the brigade now has the ability to decide and make recommendations. Just a question BTW, please don't take it personally.? Rules of Association; 8 Dissatisfaction with Chief Fire Officer or Deputy 8.1 If the Brigade is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer, the following procedure must be followed: (a) A notice of motion signed by not less than one third of the Members, seeking a resolution of the Brigade that it is dissatisfied with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer must be delivered to the Secretary of the Management Committee. The notice must contain full and precise details of the reasons for the signatories' dissatisfaction. (b) Upon receipt of a notice under paragraph (a) of this rule, the Secretary of the Management Committee must call a special meeting of the Brigade to consider the motion (c) Notice of the special meeting must be given to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be) together with full and precise details of the reasons for the motion. (d) At the special meeting the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy Chief Fire Officer (as the case may be) must be given a reasonable opportunity to respond (in writing or verbally) to the reasons for the motion. 8.2 If the resolution is passed by a majority of the Members attending the special meeting, a further resolution may be passed (again by majority) that the Brigade recommend to the Regional Manager that disciplinary proceedings be commenced in relation to the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). Any recommendation to the Regional Manager must include full and precise details of the reasons for the Brigade's dissatisfaction with the performance of the Chief Fire Officer or Deputy (as the case may be). ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From skweek at clear.net.nz Sun Dec 18 21:22:34 2011 From: skweek at clear.net.nz (skweek) Date: Sun Dec 18 21:22:54 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's Message-ID: <4eeda2ca.1d2.9da.29501@clear.net.nz> Ben, Tony and others, Please stop thinking that all of us "white hats" think that we have a "job for life". Yes, I agree that there have been/are those that do but it seems that those of you that have a 'bad taste in your mouths' are lumping us all together! Bring on the fixed term reviews. I and I know many others, believe that the good of the brigade far outweighs any personal position. I enjoy reading the many differing views here but am sick of being referred to as one of the stick in the muds, just because of the temporary rank that I hold! I am more that prepared to step aside should anyone progress through that could do a better job in the brigades view. Thanks, Squeak. ----- Original Message Follows ----- > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN > NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ Adam > > "KPIs and shit that really relate to paid staff" > > So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to > meet a minimum standard? So it's fine for vollies to take > 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits for donning and > startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid > fireys"? > > Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go > into house fires and be in the heat at hazmat incidents -- > becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the > paid guys"? > > Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of > attitude is the sort of thing that we want to weed out > from the service, that which says "we're vollies so we can > be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". > > For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm > simply part of a team. That's the reason I stand with all > the other firefighters during parade. But in the interests > of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally happy with > the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in > that chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat > reasonably soon. And I hope like hell that when I do I > have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if and when > some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, > that there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced > if it's the right thing to do. 'cos chances are that when > I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and have the > attitude that its a position for life - and that's > precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... > > K47 > > /b > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 > 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic > wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of > you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here > > anyway) CFO/DCFO's position, or the position to be > available. > > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it > > would be interesting on what they think too. > > > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with > > their leader. You only have to look at your boss, the > > prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone else who is > in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her > > outta there, for what ever the reason. > > > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really > > relate to paid staff ..... are we forgetting that these > > Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? This will be more work, > > more shit that really boils down to .... is this what we > need? > > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being > > paid brigades, and then when will the wages start to > flow .....? > > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are > > talking about KPI's? > > etc etc...... > > > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did > > it to help our community, we are slowly being sucked > > into a system where you have to comform to a paid > > position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year > > terms, all of the Officers from SO up to national > > commander, then maybe talk to the vollys about it being > > a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... > > FARKEN HELL. > > > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I > > am sure of it. Remember that you are volunteers, you do > > have a real life, a real job, don't > > you? > > > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they > > start paying CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the > > 'Station Keeper' role they used to have. > > > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of > > them(NZFS) having to pay wages isn't it? > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of > > Ben Kepes Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ Shaun > > > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white > > helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a > > near total change of leadership before we reach the > > point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine > > trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) > > works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to > have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're > > suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew > > training, and in a computer system no less... > > > > oh wait... > > > > b > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 > > 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer > > wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ My thoughts about what would be required is as > > follows: > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) > > > for both CFO & DCFO > > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means > > > of survey (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't > > > wait until performance review to find out you aren't > > > doing a good job - Perhaps some sort of incentive to > > perform? > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at > > > conference and a DCFO one being developed. > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of > > > Tristan Saunders > > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's > > > in terms of managing their areas and the support they > > > are supposed to give their brigades. Alot of this kind > > > of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking > > > in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of > the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. > > > I dont know about other brigades, but we never see the > > > AM's An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt > > > going to change this, sure the brigade itself could > > > make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is > > > that enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, > > > but they are doing a good job of managing the brigade, > > > but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be involved > > > on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > > offer advice and be available for issues that may > arise. This will also require a 'job description' for the > > > DCFO. Does this new policy then mean that if the DCFO > > > is getting performance reviewed and doesnt make the > > > grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step > > > down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just > > introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ Hi Simon, > > > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this > > > > point... i know this issue has been bubbling for > > > > years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have > > > > been wanting to leave it till after the election in > > > > case it crossed over to became a public issue. > > > > Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model > rule change out of the way first in case that got > > > derailed. > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about > > > > though, honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel > > > > they're in danger of having their leaders chosen for > > > > them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone > > > > other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. > > > > Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated to hear > > > > anyone explain why it should be a job for life, > > > > beyond accountability to either the people who > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its > > always struck me > > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's > > > > chief-is-god tone in that recent K1 story may have > > > > their answer now (if one is needed beyond the simple > > > > bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps > just fluffing the chief's pillows before the > > > > administration of the compulsory castor oil. I've > > > > noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ Excellently opined Tony, > > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out > > > > swinging about it. > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ >> Hi all, > > > > >> > > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be > > > > Mike Hall's >> real > > > (and > > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm > > > > delighted its >> finally going ahead. > > > > >> > > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have > > > > been energetic and >> purposeful once, but over many > > > > , many years have fossilized in >> office, > > suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > > > > brigades. >> > > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very > > > > considerable social >> rewards, both from each other > > > > and in our communities. This >> invisible dividend > > > > pays off every time we get a medal from the >> mayor > , get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we > > > > roar >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as > > > > important people doing >> unarguably positive > > > > things. It feels good. >> > > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged > > > > psychological trap we >> often fall into... its very > > > > tempting to see ourselves as noble >> figures doing > > > > great things for people in need, and to kid >> > ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are > > > > thereby >> very prone to convincing ourselves that > > > > we are terribly important >> and irreplaceable, and > > > > that our own motives for anything we do to >> stay > > > in our positions within our brigades > > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We > > > start to feel that, since > > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond > > > > reproach, and >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > > >> > > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are > > > > considerable figures >> in many communities, > > > important people by virtue of their rank and position. > > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social > > > achievement of their lives. > > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing > > > > the rank, both >> within the brigade and the > > > > community at large, are clearly >> appealing and > > > rather > > > > >> addictive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may > > > > fight tooth and >> claw > > > to > > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves > > > > that any new energy >> and ideas, especially coming > > > from the younger members, must be aggressively > > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They > > > > think doing so is >> God's work, protecting the > > > > empire they've built. But really its >> just > > > parrying > > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured > > > > silverback style. >> > > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA > > > > conference makes >> this mindset painfully clear... > > > > but that just represents in >> concentrated > > > form > > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > > >> > > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that > > > continues to recognise > > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to > > > > brigade morale and >> sustainability, I think this > > > > is fantastic news. >> > > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us > > > > with. >> > > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > statements of personal >> opinion only unless > > > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------ ------ > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - > > > > > Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > > statements of personal opinion only unless > > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > statements of personal opinion only unless > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > > of personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > > otherwise ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - > > > Release Date: 12/16/11 > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - > > > Release Date: 12/17/11 > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > > of personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Sun Dec 18 21:24:53 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Sun Dec 18 21:25:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4eeda2ca.1d2.9da.29501@clear.net.nz> References: <4eeda2ca.1d2.9da.29501@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: squeak on ya! b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 12:22 AM, skweek wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ben, Tony and others, > > Please stop thinking that all of us "white hats" think that > we have a "job for life". > > Yes, I agree that there have been/are those that do but it > seems that those of you that have a 'bad taste in your > mouths' are lumping us all together! > > Bring on the fixed term reviews. I and I know many others, > believe that the good of the brigade far outweighs any > personal position. > > I enjoy reading the many differing views here but am sick of > being referred to as one of the stick in the muds, just > because of the temporary rank that I hold! I am more that > prepared to step aside should anyone progress through that > could do a better job in the brigades view. > > Thanks, > Squeak. > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN > > NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ Adam > > > > "KPIs and shit that really relate to paid staff" > > > > So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to > > meet a minimum standard? So it's fine for vollies to take > > 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits for donning and > > startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid > > fireys"? > > > > Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go > > into house fires and be in the heat at hazmat incidents -- > > becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the > > paid guys"? > > > > Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of > > attitude is the sort of thing that we want to weed out > > from the service, that which says "we're vollies so we can > > be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". > > > > For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm > > simply part of a team. That's the reason I stand with all > > the other firefighters during parade. But in the interests > > of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally happy with > > the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in > > that chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat > > reasonably soon. And I hope like hell that when I do I > > have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if and when > > some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, > > that there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced > > if it's the right thing to do. 'cos chances are that when > > I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and have the > > attitude that its a position for life - and that's > > precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... > > > > K47 > > > > /b > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 > > 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic > > wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of > > you'se are CFO/DCFO's? > > > > It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here > > > anyway) CFO/DCFO's position, or the position to be > > available. > > > > I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it > > > would be interesting on what they think too. > > > > > > In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with > > > their leader. You only have to look at your boss, the > > > prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone else who is > > in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her > > > outta there, for what ever the reason. > > > > > > You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really > > > relate to paid staff ..... are we forgetting that these > > > Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? This will be more work, > > > more shit that really boils down to .... is this what we > > need? > > > > How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being > > > paid brigades, and then when will the wages start to > > flow .....? > > > > There are complaints now about the workload, now we are > > > talking about KPI's? > > > etc etc...... > > > > > > Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did > > > it to help our community, we are slowly being sucked > > > into a system where you have to comform to a paid > > > position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, > > introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year > > > terms, all of the Officers from SO up to national > > > commander, then maybe talk to the vollys about it being > > > a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... > > > FARKEN HELL. > > > > > > I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I > > > am sure of it. Remember that you are volunteers, you do > > > have a real life, a real job, don't > > > you? > > > > > > If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they > > > start paying CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the > > > 'Station Keeper' role they used to have. > > > > > > The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of > > > them(NZFS) having to pay wages isn't it? > > > > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of > > > Ben Kepes Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. > > > To: VollyNet > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ Shaun > > > > > > I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white > > > helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a > > > near total change of leadership before we reach the > > > point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend > > the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine > > > trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) > > > works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to > > have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're > > > suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew > > > training, and in a computer system no less... > > > > > > oh wait... > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 > > > 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer > > > wrote: > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ My thoughts about what would be required is as > > > follows: > > > > > - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) > > > > for both CFO & DCFO > > > > - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means > > > > of survey (confidential??) which matches KPIs > > > > - A regular update on how performance is going - don't > > > > wait until performance review to find out you aren't > > > > doing a good job - Perhaps some sort of incentive to > > > perform? > > > > > The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at > > > > conference and a DCFO one being developed. > > > > > > > > Shaun > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of > > > > Tristan Saunders > > > > Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ > > > > > Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's > > > > in terms of managing their areas and the support they > > > > are supposed to give their brigades. Alot of this kind > > > > of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking > > > > in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of > > the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. > > > > I dont know about other brigades, but we never see the > > > > AM's An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt > > > > going to change this, sure the brigade itself could > > > > make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, > > then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is > > > > that enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, > > > > but they are doing a good job of managing the brigade, > > > > but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be involved > > > > on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, > > > > offer advice and be available for issues that may > > arise. This will also require a 'job description' for the > > > > DCFO. Does this new policy then mean that if the DCFO > > > > is getting performance reviewed and doesnt make the > > > > grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head > > spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step > > > > down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' > > > > the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? > > > > > > > > There is alot more to this policy than just > > > introducing a fixed term. > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 > > > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ Hi Simon, > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this > > > > > point... i know this issue has been bubbling for > > > > > years. I guess he's been worried about a strong > > kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have > > > > > been wanting to leave it till after the election in > > > > > case it crossed over to became a public issue. > > > > > Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model > > rule change out of the way first in case that got > > > > derailed. > > > > > > I don't think there's much for him to worry about > > > > > though, honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel > > > > > they're in danger of having their leaders chosen for > > > > > them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone > > > > > other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be > > upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. > > > > > Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated to hear > > > > > anyone explain why it should be a job for life, > > > > > beyond accountability to either the people who > > elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its > > > always struck me > > > as a bizarre anachronism. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's > > > > > chief-is-god tone in that recent K1 story may have > > > > > their answer now (if one is needed beyond the simple > > > > > bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps > > just fluffing the chief's pillows before the > > > > > administration of the compulsory castor oil. I've > > > > > noticed this strategy from him before. As with all > > > > > politicians, real understanding comes from carefully > > > > watching their actions, regardless of their words! > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see > > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------ Excellently opined Tony, > > > > > > Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out > > > > > swinging about it. > > > > > > > Simon East > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" > > > > > > > > > > > > To: "VollyNet" > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > > > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ >> Hi all, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be > > > > > Mike Hall's >> real > > > > (and > > > > > >> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm > > > > > delighted its >> finally going ahead. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have > > > > > been energetic and >> purposeful once, but over many > > > > > , many years have fossilized in >> office, > > > suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their > > > > > brigades. >> > > > > > >> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very > > > > > considerable social >> rewards, both from each other > > > > > and in our communities. This >> invisible dividend > > > > > pays off every time we get a medal from the >> mayor > > , get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we > > > > > roar >> past in the fire truck. We're seen as > > > > > important people doing >> unarguably positive > > > > > things. It feels good. >> > > > > > >> I think this creates a little-acknowledged > > > > > psychological trap we >> often fall into... its very > > > > > tempting to see ourselves as noble >> figures doing > > > > > great things for people in need, and to kid >> > > ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are > > > > > thereby >> very prone to convincing ourselves that > > > > > we are terribly important >> and irreplaceable, and > > > > > that our own motives for anything we do to >> stay > > > > in our positions within our brigades > > > > > >> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We > > > > start to feel that, since > > > > > >> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond > > > > > reproach, and >> don't need much self-scrutiny. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is especially true for chiefs. They are > > > > > considerable figures >> in many communities, > > > > important people by virtue of their rank and position. > > > > > >> For many it is probably the greatest social > > > > achievement of their lives. > > > > > >> The social rewards that come simply from wearing > > > > > the rank, both >> within the brigade and the > > > > > community at large, are clearly >> appealing and > > > > rather > > > > > >> addictive. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Its easy to see why someone in this position may > > > > > fight tooth and >> claw > > > > to > > > > > >> stay there, and over time convince themselves > > > > > that any new energy >> and ideas, especially coming > > > > from the younger members, must be aggressively > > > > > >> savaged as a threat to their authority. They > > > > > think doing so is >> God's work, protecting the > > > > > empire they've built. But really its >> just > > > > parrying > > > > > >> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured > > > > > silverback style. >> > > > > > >> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA > > > > > conference makes >> this mindset painfully clear... > > > > > but that just represents in >> concentrated > > > > form > > > > > >> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that > > > > continues to recognise > > > > > >> the critical importance of real democracy to > > > > > brigade morale and >> sustainability, I think this > > > > > is fantastic news. >> > > > > > >> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us > > > > > with. >> > > > > > >> Tony Sutorius > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > > statements of personal >> opinion only unless > > > > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------ ------ > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - > > > > > > Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > > > statements of personal opinion only unless > > > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered > > > > > statements of personal opinion only unless > > > specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > > > of personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > > > otherwise ----- > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - > > > > Release Date: 12/16/11 > > > > ----- > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - > > > > Release Date: 12/17/11 > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > > > of personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > > otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tony at sutorius.org Sun Dec 18 22:20:40 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Sun Dec 18 22:20:47 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: References: <4ee9b957.8c.1ffa.32384@clear.net.nz> <4EEA48E3.4070109@sutorius.org> <219BA08798944EB59A6528A542039230@stantonfieldPC> <4EEA57F6.1070008@sutorius.org> <4eecf0ea.aa48440a.1ba1.239aSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <000f01ccbd07$5be3d3a0$13ab7ae0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EEDB068.2080507@sutorius.org> Hi all, I think that, all boiled down, the proposed change simply means that "chief" is something you DO, rather than something you ARE. Suddenly getting the job asks the question "what can I achieve over the next five years?". That's got to be healthy. By the way, a five year term is the normal contract length for public service chief executives, though they often do two. T. On 18/12/2011 11:11 a.m., Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Adam > > "KPIs and shit that really relate to paid staff" > > So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to meet a minimum > standard? So it's fine for vollies to take 25 minutes to don BA becuase > time limits for donning and startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for > the paid fireys"? > > Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go into house fires > and be in the heat at hazmat incidents -- becuase "Training KPIs and OSM > and shit are only for the paid guys"? > > Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of attitude is the sort > of thing that we want to weed out from the service, that which says "we're > vollies so we can be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". > > For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm simply part of a > team. That's the reason I stand with all the other firefighters during > parade. But in the interests of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally > happy with the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in that > chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat reasonably soon. And I hope > like hell that when I do I have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if > and when some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, that > there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced if it's the right thing > to do. 'cos chances are that when I get a white hat, I'll be like the other > lot and have the attitude that its a position for life - and that's > precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... > > K47 > > /b > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovicwrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of you'se are CFO/DCFO's? >> >> It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here anyway) CFO/DCFO's >> position, or the position to be available. >> >> I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it would be interesting >> on what they think too. >> >> In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with their leader. You only >> have to look at your boss, the prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone >> else who is in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her outta >> there, for what ever the reason. >> >> You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really relate to paid staff >> ..... are we forgetting that these Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? >> This will be more work, more shit that really boils down to .... is this >> what we need? >> >> How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being paid brigades, and >> then when will the wages start to flow .....? >> >> There are complaints now about the workload, now we are talking about >> KPI's? >> etc etc...... >> >> Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did it to help our >> community, we are slowly being sucked into a system where you have to >> comform to a paid position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, >> introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year terms, all of the >> Officers from SO up to national commander, then maybe talk to the vollys >> about it being a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... >> FARKEN >> HELL. >> >> I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I am sure of it. >> Remember that you are volunteers, you do have a real life, a real job, >> don't >> you? >> >> If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they start paying >> CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the 'Station Keeper' role they used to >> have. >> >> The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of them(NZFS) having to >> pay wages isn't it? >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ben Kepes >> Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Shaun >> >> I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white helmets in the >> brigades around me, it's going to be a near total change of leadership >> before we reach the point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend >> the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine trying to tell 35 year >> veteran CFO who (for example) works as a contractor that they're suddenly >> going to have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're suddenly >> going to have to keep a record of their crew training, and in a computer >> system no less... >> >> oh wait... >> >> b >> >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web >> www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer>> wrote: >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My thoughts about what would be required is as follows: >>> >>> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) for both CFO& >>> DCFO >>> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means of survey >>> (confidential??) which matches KPIs >>> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't wait until >>> performance review to find out you aren't doing a good job >>> - Perhaps some sort of incentive to perform? >>> >>> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at conference and a >>> DCFO one being developed. >>> >>> Shaun >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan >>> Saunders >>> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's in terms of >>> managing their areas and the support they are supposed to give their >>> brigades. Alot of this kind of stuff could be achieved by these >>> managers checking in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health >>> of the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. I dont >>> know about other brigades, but we never see the AM's An introduction >>> of fixed terms for chiefs isnt going to change this, sure the brigade >>> itself could make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, >>> then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is that >>> enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, but they are doing a >>> good job of managing the brigade, but get turfed out anyway. The AM >>> needs to be involved on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, >>> offer advice and be available for issues that may arise. >>> This will also require a 'job description' for the DCFO. Does this new >>> policy then mean that if the DCFO is getting performance reviewed and >>> doesnt make the grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head >>> spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step down/not >>> renewed? can someone 'jump' >>> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? >>> >>> There is alot more to this policy than just introducing a fixed term. >>> >>> >>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Simon, >>>> >>>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this point... i know this >>>> issue has been bubbling for years. I guess he's been worried about a >>>> strong kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have been >>>> wanting to leave it till after the election in case it crossed over >>>> to became a public issue. Perhaps also keen to get the conference >>>> and model rule change out of the way first in case that got derailed. >>>> >>>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about though, >>>> honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel they're in danger of >>>> having their leaders chosen for them by outsiders, its difficult to >>>> see why anyone other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be >>>> upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. Welcome to the >>>> real world. I'd be fascinated to hear anyone explain why it should >>>> be a job for life, beyond accountability to either the people who >>>> elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its always struck >> me >> as a bizarre anachronism. >>>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's chief-is-god tone in that >>>> recent K1 story may have their answer now (if one is needed beyond >>>> the simple bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps just >>>> fluffing the chief's pillows before the administration of the >>>> compulsory castor oil. I've noticed this strategy from him before. >>>> As with all politicians, real understanding comes from carefully >>>> watching their actions, regardless of their words! >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Excellently opined Tony, >>>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out swinging about it. >>>>> >>>>> Simon East >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >>>>> >>>>> To: "VollyNet" >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be Mike Hall's >>>>>> real >>> (and >>>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm delighted its >>>>>> finally going ahead. >>>>>> >>>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have been energetic and >>>>>> purposeful once, but over many, many years have fossilized in >>>>>> office, suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their >> brigades. >>>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very considerable social >>>>>> rewards, both from each other and in our communities. This >>>>>> invisible dividend pays off every time we get a medal from the >>>>>> mayor, get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we roar >>>>>> past in the fire truck. We're seen as important people doing >>>>>> unarguably positive things. It feels good. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged psychological trap we >>>>>> often fall into... its very tempting to see ourselves as noble >>>>>> figures doing great things for people in need, and to kid >>>>>> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are thereby >>>>>> very prone to convincing ourselves that we are terribly important >>>>>> and irreplaceable, and that our own motives for anything we do to >>>>>> stay in our positions within our >>> brigades >>>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We start to feel that, >>> since >>>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond reproach, and >>>>>> don't need much self-scrutiny. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are considerable figures >>>>>> in many communities, important people by virtue of their rank and >>> position. >>>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social achievement of their >>> lives. >>>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing the rank, both >>>>>> within the brigade and the community at large, are clearly >>>>>> appealing and >>> rather >>>>>> addictive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may fight tooth and >>>>>> claw >>> to >>>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves that any new energy >>>>>> and ideas, especially coming from the younger members, must be >>> aggressively >>>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They think doing so is >>>>>> God's work, protecting the empire they've built. But really its >>>>>> just >>> parrying >>>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured silverback style. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA conference makes >>>>>> this mindset painfully clear... but that just represents in >>>>>> concentrated >>> form >>>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>>>>> >>>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that continues to >>> recognise >>>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to brigade morale and >>>>>> sustainability, I think this is fantastic news. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us with. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony Sutorius >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ >>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: >>>>> 09/09/10 18:34:00 >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - Release Date: >>> 12/16/11 >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: >>> 12/17/11 >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion >> only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Sun Dec 18 22:33:27 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Sun Dec 18 22:33:36 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> On 18/12/2011 3:25 p.m., Adam Knezovic wrote: > Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of > action that you can take. > Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous waste of volunteer hours. There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared through these dramas... I can easily see how. But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure for a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business needs to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders underway. That's how it should be, surely? T. From tony at sutorius.org Sun Dec 18 22:46:13 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Sun Dec 18 22:46:21 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4eeda2ca.1d2.9da.29501@clear.net.nz> References: <4eeda2ca.1d2.9da.29501@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4EEDB665.2040409@sutorius.org> Good on you Squeak. You're clearly not a part of the problem, and I apologise if I have seemed to paint with such a broad brush. I have nothing against CFOs in general... its a hell of job to do in many ways. There are many excellent chiefs around, and they have my greatest respect. I suspect I'll never be in a position, or perhaps never be selfless enough, to give such a large slice of my life to the brigade as those ones do. For what its worth I am a big fan of my own CFO, and have told him (and our RM) that we intend to work him till he dies in office, then ideally have him carry on after that Weekend-At-Bernie's style. T. On 18/12/2011 9:22 p.m., skweek wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ben, Tony and others, > > Please stop thinking that all of us "white hats" think that > we have a "job for life". > > Yes, I agree that there have been/are those that do but it > seems that those of you that have a 'bad taste in your > mouths' are lumping us all together! > > Bring on the fixed term reviews. I and I know many others, > believe that the good of the brigade far outweighs any > personal position. > > I enjoy reading the many differing views here but am sick of > being referred to as one of the stick in the muds, just > because of the temporary rank that I hold! I am more that > prepared to step aside should anyone progress through that > could do a better job in the brigades view. > > Thanks, > Squeak. > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN >> NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ Adam >> >> "KPIs and shit that really relate to paid staff" >> >> So your perspective is that only paid staff should have to >> meet a minimum standard? So it's fine for vollies to take >> 25 minutes to don BA becuase time limits for donning and >> startup are "KPIs and shit that are only for the paid >> fireys"? >> >> Or that it's fine for us to have recruit firefighters go >> into house fires and be in the heat at hazmat incidents -- >> becuase "Training KPIs and OSM and shit are only for the >> paid guys"? >> >> Sorry, and with the utmost respect, but this sort of >> attitude is the sort of thing that we want to weed out >> from the service, that which says "we're vollies so we can >> be crap at the job becuase we're not paid to do it". >> >> For the record, I don't really think my rank matters, I'm >> simply part of a team. That's the reason I stand with all >> the other firefighters during parade. But in the interests >> of full disclosure I'm an SO, who is generally happy with >> the leadership team in front of me but is realistic in >> that chances are I'll be wearing my own white hat >> reasonably soon. And I hope like hell that when I do I >> have to comply with KPIs and shit, and that if and when >> some young keen thing is there ready to fill my shoes, >> that there's a system in place whereby I can be replaced >> if it's the right thing to do. 'cos chances are that when >> I get a white hat, I'll be like the other lot and have the >> attitude that its a position for life - and that's >> precisely the problem that we're trying to overcome... >> >> K47 >> >> /b >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 >> 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >> web www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Adam Knezovic >> wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING >>> IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ You know, no disrespect guys, but how many of >> you'se are CFO/DCFO's?> >>> It appears to me a lot of people want their (on here >>> anyway) CFO/DCFO's position, or the position to be >> available.> >>> I would love to hear from the CFO/DCFO's out there, it >>> would be interesting on what they think too. >>> >>> In a society, no one is ever going to be happy with >>> their leader. You only have to look at your boss, the >>> prime minister, the mayor, the mp or anyone else who is >> in charge, there will always be the ones who want him/her >>> outta there, for what ever the reason. >>> >>> You guys are talking about KPI's and shit that really >>> relate to paid staff ..... are we forgetting that these >>> Volly CFO/DCFO's are Vollys? This will be more work, >>> more shit that really boils down to .... is this what we >> need?> >>> How much closer will this get to Volly brigades being >>> paid brigades, and then when will the wages start to >> flow .....?> >>> There are complaints now about the workload, now we are >>> talking about KPI's? >>> etc etc...... >>> >>> Talk about retention issues, what happened when we did >>> it to help our community, we are slowly being sucked >>> into a system where you have to comform to a paid >>> position with no monetary gain. Like I said before, >> introduce it to the paid staff first, put them on 5 year >>> terms, all of the Officers from SO up to national >>> commander, then maybe talk to the vollys about it being >>> a 5 year term for them, but to introduce KPI's ....... >>> FARKEN HELL. >>> >>> I know you guys wanna be more like the paid guys, now I >>> am sure of it. Remember that you are volunteers, you do >>> have a real life, a real job, don't >>> you? >>> >>> If it gets to this stage, I say the next stage is they >>> start paying CFO/DCFO's to do this, sorta like the >>> 'Station Keeper' role they used to have. >>> >>> The demands on the volly's is getting to the point of >>> them(NZFS) having to pay wages isn't it? >>> >>> >>> Thanks and regards >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of >>> Ben Kepes Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2011 9:45 a.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING >>> IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ Shaun >>> >>> I'm totally with you but from what I know of the white >>> helmets in the brigades around me, it's going to be a >>> near total change of leadership before we reach the >>> point where some CFOs and DCFOs are able to comprehend >> the very existence of a JD and KPIs. Can you imagine >>> trying to tell 35 year veteran CFO who (for example) >>> works as a contractor that they're suddenly going to >> have to meet KPIs? It'd be like telling them that they're >>> suddenly going to have to keep a record of their crew >>> training, and in a computer system no less... >>> >>> oh wait... >>> >>> b >>> >>> >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 >>> 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >>> web www.diversity.net.nz >> > >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Shaun Sayer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER >>>> FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see >>>> www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------ My thoughts about what would be required is as >>> follows:> >>>> - Clear, understandable and measurable KPI's (JD's) >>>> for both CFO& DCFO >>>> - Input from brigade on CFO/DCFO performance by means >>>> of survey (confidential??) which matches KPIs >>>> - A regular update on how performance is going - don't >>>> wait until performance review to find out you aren't >>>> doing a good job - Perhaps some sort of incentive to >>> perform?> >>>> The CFO's JD is being revamped from what I heard at >>>> conference and a DCFO one being developed. >>>> >>>> Shaun >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of >>>> Tristan Saunders >>>> Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 8:46 p.m. >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER >>>> FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see >>>> www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------> >>>> Id be interested to see what the briefs are for AM's >>>> in terms of managing their areas and the support they >>>> are supposed to give their brigades. Alot of this kind >>>> of stuff could be achieved by these managers checking >>>> in on the chiefs and the crews to gauge the health of >> the brigade, and review the plans that the heirarchy have. >>>> I dont know about other brigades, but we never see the >>>> AM's An introduction of fixed terms for chiefs isnt >>>> going to change this, sure the brigade itself could >>>> make an assessment, and as the position is appointed, >> then the AM would get involved at the renewal time, but is >>>> that enough. It could simply be a popularity issue, >>>> but they are doing a good job of managing the brigade, >>>> but get turfed out anyway. The AM needs to be involved >>>> on an ongoing basis, to assess their performance, >>>> offer advice and be available for issues that may >> arise. This will also require a 'job description' for the >>>> DCFO. Does this new policy then mean that if the DCFO >>>> is getting performance reviewed and doesnt make the >>>> grade, and then neither the CFO, who takes the head >> spot..? Or does the DCFO then take the CFO if they step >>>> down/not renewed? can someone 'jump' >>>> the DCFO and take the CFO spot..? >>>> >>>> There is alot more to this policy than just >>> introducing a fixed term.> >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:26:30 +1300 >>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER >>>>> FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see >>>>> www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------ Hi Simon, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I also wonder why he's held off to this >>>>> point... i know this issue has been bubbling for >>>>> years. I guess he's been worried about a strong >> kickback from the UFBA, and he may be right. He may have >>>>> been wanting to leave it till after the election in >>>>> case it crossed over to became a public issue. >>>>> Perhaps also keen to get the conference and model >> rule change out of the way first in case that got >>>> derailed.> >>>>> I don't think there's much for him to worry about >>>>> though, honestly... AS LONG AS brigades don't feel >>>>> they're in danger of having their leaders chosen for >>>>> them by outsiders, its difficult to see why anyone >>>>> other than the chiefs themselves is likely to be >> upset by a little bit of five-yearly accountability. >>>>> Welcome to the real world. I'd be fascinated to hear >>>>> anyone explain why it should be a job for life, >>>>> beyond accountability to either the people who >> elected them or the Fire Service command hierarchy. Its >>> always struck me >>> as a bizarre anachronism. >>>>> By the way, anyone wondering about Mike's >>>>> chief-is-god tone in that recent K1 story may have >>>>> their answer now (if one is needed beyond the simple >>>>> bandwagon-pushing of the editors)... he was perhaps >> just fluffing the chief's pillows before the >>>>> administration of the compulsory castor oil. I've >>>>> noticed this strategy from him before. As with all >>>>> politicians, real understanding comes from carefully >>>> watching their actions, regardless of their words!> >>>>> Tony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/12/2011 8:55 a.m., stantonfield wrote: >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER >>>>>> FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see >>>>>> www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ------ Excellently opined Tony, >>>>>> Its a pity it has a feel of a leader going out >>>>> swinging about it.> >>>>>> Simon East >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Sutorius" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "VollyNet" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:22 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER >>>>> FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For>> information and help see >>>>> www.vollynet.org.nz>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------>> Hi all, >>>>>>> This is a huge, huge deal in my view, and will be >>>>> Mike Hall's>> real >>>> (and >>>>>>> very positive) volunteer retention legacy. I'm >>>>> delighted its>> finally going ahead. >>>>>>> We all know "job for life" chiefs who may have >>>>> been energetic and>> purposeful once, but over many >>>>> , many years have fossilized in>> office, >>> suffocating the vitality and creativity out of their >>>>> brigades.>> >>>>>>> As volunteer firefighters we enjoy very >>>>> considerable social>> rewards, both from each other >>>>> and in our communities. This>> invisible dividend >>>>> pays off every time we get a medal from the>> mayor >> , get in the local paper, every time a kid waves as we >>>>> roar>> past in the fire truck. We're seen as >>>>> important people doing>> unarguably positive >>>>> things. It feels good.>> >>>>>>> I think this creates a little-acknowledged >>>>> psychological trap we>> often fall into... its very >>>>> tempting to see ourselves as noble>> figures doing >>>>> great things for people in need, and to kid>> >> ourselves that we do this entirely selflessly. We are >>>>> thereby>> very prone to convincing ourselves that >>>>> we are terribly important>> and irreplaceable, and >>>>> that our own motives for anything we do to>> stay >>>> in our positions within our brigades >>>>>>> must surely be as pure as the driven snow. We >>>> start to feel that, since >>>>>>> our work is so noble, our motives must be beyond >>>>> reproach, and>> don't need much self-scrutiny. >>>>>>> This is especially true for chiefs. They are >>>>> considerable figures>> in many communities, >>>> important people by virtue of their rank and position. >>>>>>> For many it is probably the greatest social >>>> achievement of their lives. >>>>>>> The social rewards that come simply from wearing >>>>> the rank, both>> within the brigade and the >>>>> community at large, are clearly>> appealing and >>>> rather >>>>>>> addictive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Its easy to see why someone in this position may >>>>> fight tooth and>> claw >>>> to >>>>>>> stay there, and over time convince themselves >>>>> that any new energy>> and ideas, especially coming >>>> from the younger members, must be aggressively >>>>>>> savaged as a threat to their authority. They >>>>> think doing so is>> God's work, protecting the >>>>> empire they've built. But really its>> just >>>> parrying >>>>>>> a threat to their alpha status, in time-honoured >>>>> silverback style.>> >>>>>>> I'm sorry to say that any time spent at a UFBA >>>>> conference makes>> this mindset painfully clear... >>>>> but that just represents in>> concentrated >>>> form >>>>>>> the life of many... most?... individual brigades. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As long as the Fire Service do this in a way that >>>> continues to recognise >>>>>>> the critical importance of real democracy to >>>>> brigade morale and>> sustainability, I think this >>>>> is fantastic news.>> >>>>>>> Well done Mike; what a great legacy to leave us >>>>> with.>> >>>>>>> Tony Sutorius >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >>>>> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles>> >>>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered >>>>> statements of personal>> opinion only unless >>>>> specifically stated otherwise> >>>>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------------ ------ >>>> ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - >>>>>> Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 >>>>>> >>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >>>>> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered >>>>>> statements of personal opinion only unless >>>> specifically stated otherwise> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >>>> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered >>>>> statements of personal opinion only unless >>> specifically stated otherwise> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >>> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements >>>> of personal opinion only unless specifically stated >>>> otherwise ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4684 - >>>> Release Date: 12/16/11 >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - >>>> Release Date: 12/17/11 >>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >>> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements >>>> of personal opinion only unless specifically stated >>> otherwise> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated >> otherwise> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated >> otherwise> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit >> www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 18 22:50:37 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Dec 18 22:50:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO In-Reply-To: <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> References: <008001ccbd2c$50b6a6e0$f223f4a0$@yahoo.co.nz>, <4EEDB367.1020305@sutorius.org> Message-ID: if you've seen the 'brigade healthcheck' survey, it asks all those questions, including succession planning related ones. Again, something that could have already been being checked up on by the AMs. > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 22:33:27 +1300 > From: tony@sutorius.org > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Disatisfaction with the CFO/DCFO > CC: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On 18/12/2011 3:25 p.m., Adam Knezovic wrote: > > Presently, if you are dissatisfied with the CFO/DCFO, you have a course of > > action that you can take. > > Why wait the 5 years when you can do it tomorrow? > > > Well, because the process SUUUUCKS, and requires an enormous amount of > unity and dedication from all the other senior members of the brigade. > The amount of energy expended is enormous, and really a tremendous waste > of volunteer hours. > > There have been cases where brigades have virtually disappeared through > these dramas... I can easily see how. > > But really I dont think the idea here is nail a whole bunch of useless > chiefs... look at it more positively, its a way to keep the leadership > of brigades dynamic and energised. It says that the "natural" tenure for > a chief is five, maybe ten years... so an early order of business needs > to be getting the development of the next generation of leaders > underway. That's how it should be, surely? > > T. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Sun Dec 18 22:55:17 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Sun Dec 18 22:55:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] fixed terms for CFO's In-Reply-To: <4ee93e69.596ee30a.1833.06ea@mx.google.com> References: <004201ccbaaf$bd822d50$388687f0$@yahoo.co.nz> <4ee93e69.596ee30a.1833.06ea@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EEDB885.4030809@sutorius.org> On 15/12/2011 1:25 p.m., Anaru Hartley wrote: > As I understand it the same person can stand for re-appointment, so it's > probably more of a weeding process I wondered about this too, but it doesn't seem to be what the National Commander(s) have in mind; he/they really seems to be seeking to normalise increased chiefly turnover... quoting from the announcement email:- "I have noted that a number of senior officers in volunteer brigades have stood down voluntarily to allow younger brigade members to move to senior positions, whilst staying in the brigade to offer advice and support. My proposal formalises this sound approach across all brigades". T. From nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 15 19:19:22 2011 From: nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz (Nilson Family) Date: Thu Dec 22 05:23:49 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] NTC Extension now open Message-ID: From nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 15 19:20:40 2011 From: nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz (Nilson Family) Date: Thu Dec 22 05:23:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] NTC2 Message-ID: <760F5958A35741389D85ACF76C556AEB@FamilyPC>