From ed at hintz.org Tue Dec 6 22:15:40 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Tue Dec 6 22:15:55 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... Message-ID: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner rather than later would be better". Curious retention strategy there... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 22:55:29 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Tue Dec 6 22:55:54 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4edde696.c6b8320a.709f.52fe@mx.google.com> Where does one get a copy of K1 from now days? It's stopped arriving in the old mailbox. *waves at all my NZPFU fans* > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2011 22:16 > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment > strategy... > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like > the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner > rather than later would be better". > > Curious retention strategy there... > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 08:57:46 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 08:58:01 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... Message-ID: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/tennessee-firefighters-watch-home-burns-ground Puts the FFs in a rather crap situation really, no win. Gotta say tho, not terribly bright folks. They knew the policy, and chose to risk it. Doing that over a measly $75 seems like a pretty bad risk/reward scenario to me. Tho I guess it depends on distance; if you're far enough away that turnout is gonna take 10-15 mins, I suppose in many cases there'd be little difference in outcome. Still, $75, meh. Just pay it. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Dec 7 11:32:43 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:33:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> On 07/12/11 08:57, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/tennessee-firefighters-watch-home-burns-ground > > Puts the FFs in a rather crap situation really, no win. > > Gotta say tho, not terribly bright folks. They knew the policy, and > chose to risk it. Doing that over a measly $75 seems like a pretty bad > risk/reward scenario to me. Tho I guess it depends on distance; if > you're far enough away that turnout is gonna take 10-15 mins, I suppose > in many cases there'd be little difference in outcome. Still, $75, meh. > Just pay it. > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be better than having to start from scratch...? From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 11:59:13 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:59:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 11:32 AM, Mark Foster wrote: > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have > the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be > better than having to start from scratch...? The punters would never pay up, I'm sure. They're pretty obviously not terribly flush, given they're living in a mobile home, in a rural area, and can't afford a $75/year fee or insurance... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From matt at p00le.net Wed Dec 7 12:02:53 2011 From: matt at p00le.net (Matthew Poole) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:03:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> Same reason you can't back-date an insurance policy if you need to make a claim . This is a form of insurance, cos sure as hell it's more than $75 to extinguish even a pot on a stove, never mind a fully-involved trailer. Plus, as Ed pointed out, they probably wouldn't pay up anyway. Mark Foster wrote: > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have > the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be > better than having to start from scratch...? > -- Matthew Poole "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer." From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Dec 7 12:06:29 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:06:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> Message-ID: <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> There's a reason I used the term 'jurisdiction'. It'd need to be enforcable at some legal level, even if it was docked from their social security or whatever, or tacked onto their rent until paid off. Oh and it'd have to be heaps more than $75 if retrospective - obviously! On 07/12/11 12:02, Matthew Poole wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Same reason you can't back-date an insurance policy if you need to make a > claim . This is a form of insurance, cos sure as hell it's more than $75 > to extinguish even a pot on a stove, never mind a fully-involved trailer. > > Plus, as Ed pointed out, they probably wouldn't pay up anyway. > > Mark Foster wrote: > >> Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have >> the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be >> better than having to start from scratch...? >> From pitchey at xtra.co.nz Wed Dec 7 12:07:56 2011 From: pitchey at xtra.co.nz (John Pitchford) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:08:05 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> Message-ID: <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> How can you say that Ed? I have some friends that live in a "mobile home" and they're not short of a bob or two! -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 11:59 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 12/7/11 11:32 AM, Mark Foster wrote: > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then > have the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely > that'd be better than having to start from scratch...? The punters would never pay up, I'm sure. They're pretty obviously not terribly flush, given they're living in a mobile home, in a rural area, and can't afford a $75/year fee or insurance... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From matt at p00le.net Wed Dec 7 12:16:32 2011 From: matt at p00le.net (Matthew Poole) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:16:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> Message-ID: In which case you may as well just tax all property owners in the county $75 for fire protection. Which would doubtless be overruled by a judge as being an unconscionable, socialist imposition on honest, hard-working Americans' right to f*ck up their own lives as they see fit. This is the country that's not even prepared to accept mandatory medical insurance without a fight about its socialist evils, remember. Mark Foster wrote: > There's a reason I used the term 'jurisdiction'. It'd need to be > enforcable at some legal level, even if it was docked from their social > security or whatever, or tacked onto their rent until paid off. > > Oh and it'd have to be heaps more than $75 if retrospective - obviously! > > > > On 07/12/11 12:02, Matthew Poole wrote: >> >> Same reason you can't back-date an insurance policy if you need to make >> a >> claim . This is a form of insurance, cos sure as hell it's more than $75 >> to extinguish even a pot on a stove, never mind a fully-involved >> trailer. >> >> Plus, as Ed pointed out, they probably wouldn't pay up anyway. >> >> Mark Foster wrote: >> >>> Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then >>> have >>> the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be >>> better than having to start from scratch...? >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > -- Matthew Poole "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer." From matt at p00le.net Wed Dec 7 12:17:50 2011 From: matt at p00le.net (Matthew Poole) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:17:57 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <5bac4ae9c08705205cbab037ae7dbcf2.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> They probably don't live in rural Tennessee, I suspect. Think the rural outskirts of the rural outskirts of somewhere like Kaeo (rural-ish Northland). John Pitchford wrote: > How can you say that Ed? > > I have some friends that live in a "mobile home" and they're not short of > a > bob or two! > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 11:59 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 12/7/11 11:32 AM, Mark Foster wrote: > >> Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then >> have the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely >> that'd be better than having to start from scratch...? > > The punters would never pay up, I'm sure. They're pretty obviously not > terribly flush, given they're living in a mobile home, in a rural area, > and > can't afford a $75/year fee or insurance... > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > -- Matthew Poole "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer." From stantonfield at clear.net.nz Wed Dec 7 12:20:35 2011 From: stantonfield at clear.net.nz (stantonfield) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:21:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> Message-ID: It is not without precedence Not that I agree with the funding model proposed (or the current FS model either) But here in Chch many building owners are getting there retrospective bills for a service after an emergency event (earthquake demos), When it would have been cheaper if alternative options were allowed. Kinda like the council mowing your property if considered a fire risk then sending you the bill after with a hefty premium attached. Simon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Foster" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > There's a reason I used the term 'jurisdiction'. It'd need to be > enforcable at some legal level, even if it was docked from their social > security or whatever, or tacked onto their rent until paid off. > > Oh and it'd have to be heaps more than $75 if retrospective - obviously! > > > > On 07/12/11 12:02, Matthew Poole wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Same reason you can't back-date an insurance policy if you need to make a >> claim . This is a form of insurance, cos sure as hell it's more than $75 >> to extinguish even a pot on a stove, never mind a fully-involved trailer. >> >> Plus, as Ed pointed out, they probably wouldn't pay up anyway. >> >> Mark Foster wrote: >> >>> Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have >>> the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be >>> better than having to start from scratch...? >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Dec 7 12:25:23 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:25:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <9428e9ebbc104318ae7c565c0598fec3.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4EDE9FF5.6040609@blakjak.net> Message-ID: and, bear in mind that part of the problem around FS funding in this country is the fact that a bunch f organizations self-insure and don't actually pay their levy... Oh and I know a guy who lives in a mobile home to, he's the founder/president of a business worth around USD5Bill - see, you just never can tell... b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:20 PM, stantonfield wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > It is not without precedence > Not that I agree with the funding model proposed (or the current FS model > either) > But here in Chch many building owners are getting there retrospective > bills for a service after an emergency event (earthquake demos), When it > would have been cheaper if alternative options were allowed. > Kinda like the council mowing your property if considered a fire risk > then sending you the bill after with a hefty premium attached. > Simon > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Foster" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 12:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> There's a reason I used the term 'jurisdiction'. It'd need to be >> enforcable at some legal level, even if it was docked from their social >> security or whatever, or tacked onto their rent until paid off. >> >> Oh and it'd have to be heaps more than $75 if retrospective - obviously! >> >> >> >> On 07/12/11 12:02, Matthew Poole wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >>> >>> Same reason you can't back-date an insurance policy if you need to make a >>> claim . This is a form of insurance, cos sure as hell it's more than $75 >>> to extinguish even a pot on a stove, never mind a fully-involved trailer. >>> >>> Plus, as Ed pointed out, they probably wouldn't pay up anyway. >>> >>> Mark Foster wrote: >>> >>> Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have >>>> the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be >>>> better than having to start from scratch...? >>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > -------------------- > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 > 18:34:00 > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 12:41:42 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:41:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4EDEA836.6090103@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 12:07 PM, John Pitchford wrote: > I have some friends that live in a "mobile home" and they're not short of a > bob or two! I greatly reduced my expenses while attending 4 years at U of Texas Austin by purchasing a mobile home. Cost me about half what an apartment would have, and I got 8 grand back when we sold it and moved back to Cali. Fantastic deal, even if some of my fellow students decided I was white trash. Fine by me, call me all the white trash you want, I got another 20 grand that's not on my student loans k thx bai. Who's the dumbass now, bitch? :D Great family friend I'll be having dinner with next week in Los Angeles is in one too. Has been for 30 odd years, and he's doin' just fine (SoCal, in fact, is an ideal place for 'em, as the lack of reasonable insulation is not an issue due to the mild climate and there's no tornados to blow it away). But I'd stand by my statement. There's not a lot of folk living by choice in trailers in darkest rural Tennessee, who can't afford insurance or a $75/yr fee, and yet are financially well off. Prepared to accept these guys buck the trend, but if I'm layin' money on it I'm goin' with broke as f**k and plausibly the subject of a Jeff Foxworthy joke or two. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 13:23:33 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Wed Dec 7 13:23:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> Cheers to everyone who forwarded me a copy! Checked my inbox this morning and there was a flood of e-mails with copies attached. Now, does it work the same if I ask where one can find a hundred dollar note? After reading what Mr Hall said, to some extent I'd have to agree, however he does seem a little out of touch, especially when you look at the poor recruitment and retention statistics many brigades suffer. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2011 22:16 > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment > strategy... > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like > the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner > rather than later would be better". > > Curious retention strategy there... > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Dec 7 13:29:01 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Dec 7 13:29:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: it's interesting, while Mike's approach doesn't exactly come from the Dale Carnegie book of how best to influence people, I do have some sympathy for his approach a hypothetical friend of mine (ahem) is a member of a voluntary organization (ahem) where the members are all about doing the very minimum possible (or less). In fact said friend has actually been openly criticized for suggestion that perhaps near enough isn't good enough and that he organization should strive for excellence. The attitude from the leadership has always been that "we are a voluntary organization and we can't expect people to.. (insert whatever expectation is reasonable). my hypothetical friend wonders just why we can't expect excellence from folks, paid or otherwise Of course any similarity between the above anecdote and real life is purely coincidental (ahem) /b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Cheers to everyone who forwarded me a copy! Checked my inbox this morning > and there was a flood of e-mails with copies attached. Now, does it work > the > same if I ask where one can find a hundred dollar note? > > After reading what Mr Hall said, to some extent I'd have to agree, however > he does seem a little out of touch, especially when you look at the poor > recruitment and retention statistics many brigades suffer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2011 22:16 > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment > > strategy... > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like > > the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner > > rather than later would be better". > > > > Curious retention strategy there... > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 13:42:00 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Wed Dec 7 13:42:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4edeb65d.8be6e70a.099a.1d35@mx.google.com> The real problem here isn't the ethical question, but the ethical rot that exists in the United States where people forget that civilization is built on participation. A social contract is just valuable as a commercial contract. The moment you start systematically excluding people from society based solely on commercial contracts, you leave the door wide up for social contracts, such as thy shall not steal, thy shall not murder, to be made null and void. Eventually a communities social equity is going to hit a margin call and when that happens, we'll see foreclosure on common decency. BUT, $75 per annum, roughly $0.20 per day? Come on, that's pretty reasonable for a "user pays" country like the US. Obviously Wall Street hasn't figured out how to speculate on the probability of fire yet and then package it as a complicated financial instrument that can be sold to unsuspecting European countries and institutions. By their own admission, the owners were aware and did nothing, so I doubt money was the issue. It's just another reason why we (New Zealand) should stop adopting American policies and models! > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 08:58 > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/tennessee-firefighters- > watch-home-burns-ground > > Puts the FFs in a rather crap situation really, no win. > > Gotta say tho, not terribly bright folks. They knew the policy, and > chose to risk it. Doing that over a measly $75 seems like a pretty bad > risk/reward scenario to me. Tho I guess it depends on distance; if > you're far enough away that turnout is gonna take 10-15 mins, I suppose > in many cases there'd be little difference in outcome. Still, $75, meh. > Just pay it. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 13:52:46 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 13:52:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4edeb65d.8be6e70a.099a.1d35@mx.google.com> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4edeb65d.8be6e70a.099a.1d35@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EDEB8DE.8090405@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 1:42 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > contract. The moment you start systematically excluding people from society > based solely on commercial contracts, you leave the door wide up for social > contracts, such as thy shall not steal, thy shall not murder, to be made > null and void. Eventually a communities social equity is going to hit a > margin call and when that happens, we'll see foreclosure on common decency. There's gotta be a few others around here who've read Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. His extrapolated version of the end game for that route has quite an interesting view, where gated communities, multinational corps, religions, and the mafia are all very insular and protectionist entities, vying for power and supporters. Rather blurry lines between them all, and everything's privatized and outsourced. Good read. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 14:14:17 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 14:14:29 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4edeb65d.8be6e70a.099a.1d35@mx.google.com> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4edeb65d.8be6e70a.099a.1d35@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EDEBDE9.8090109@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 1:42 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > BUT, $75 per annum, roughly $0.20 per day? Come on, that's pretty reasonable > for a "user pays" country like the US. Obviously Wall Street hasn't figured It's actually very reasonable. According to the article, there's about 2000 residences in the cover area, 2000 * 75 = 187,500. That's plenty to support a volly station(even if it's one with a paid CFO, which is a not uncommon situation in small cities), as long as big capital expenditures are supported by various federal grants and such or via city capex. It's the county outliers who are exempt from city taxes that are being asked to pay a fair share. Tho naturally having a non-voluntary system is much more reasonable, as whenever you have this kind of voluntary system there's going to be cases like this. May not be legally possible, but the logical solution would be a $75 county land tax or the like. They're pretty obviously not terribly flush, have a look at their website photos of appliances. The front runner is reasonably modern, but the two behind it would fit right in with some of the ancient Bedfords in rural brigades around these parts. http://www.cityofsouthfulton.org/fire.htm That front runner looks like a 2seater, so this'd be one of those outfits where the volly FFs take private vehicles direct to scene and the appliance comes relatively empty, quite possibly driven by a paid CFO or DCFO. Based on the city's website, city pop is 2,391 with a median income of $27,732 (standard US poverty level is $22,350). These folks are on the edge. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From owenpennell at clear.net.nz Wed Dec 7 14:56:13 2011 From: owenpennell at clear.net.nz (Owen Pennell) Date: Wed Dec 7 14:57:05 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <6CD619D378DD4D1D82793907FE0A8B92@companydb89d90> Or maybe do like St John's do & send a bill ($80) above the money that is paid by the DHBs, for service, followed by referral to BayCorp?? Owen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Foster" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 07/12/11 08:57, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/tennessee-firefighters-watch-home-burns-ground >> >> Puts the FFs in a rather crap situation really, no win. >> >> Gotta say tho, not terribly bright folks. They knew the policy, and >> chose to risk it. Doing that over a measly $75 seems like a pretty bad >> risk/reward scenario to me. Tho I guess it depends on distance; if >> you're far enough away that turnout is gonna take 10-15 mins, I suppose >> in many cases there'd be little difference in outcome. Still, $75, meh. >> Just pay it. >> > > > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then have > the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely that'd be > better than having to start from scratch...? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From russellandness at clear.net.nz Wed Dec 7 17:49:18 2011 From: russellandness at clear.net.nz (RUSSELL) Date: Wed Dec 7 17:49:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> Gee Ed you might have got that wrong I can name a number of people that live in mobile homes/buses that certainly have a bob or 2. Do you know what 1 of these cost. Cookie -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of John Pitchford Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 12:08 p.m. To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- How can you say that Ed? I have some friends that live in a "mobile home" and they're not short of a bob or two! -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 11:59 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 12/7/11 11:32 AM, Mark Foster wrote: > Indeed. And I don't know why the FF's couldnt do the work and then > have the local jurisdiction send a bill their way instead? Surely > that'd be better than having to start from scratch...? The punters would never pay up, I'm sure. They're pretty obviously not terribly flush, given they're living in a mobile home, in a rural area, and can't afford a $75/year fee or insurance... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 18:50:47 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 18:51:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> Message-ID: <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 5:49 PM, RUSSELL wrote: > Gee Ed you might have got that wrong I can name a number of people that live > in mobile homes/buses that certainly have a bob or 2. Do you know what 1 of > these cost. The one I bought in 1994, 2nd hand in Austin Texas, was about 15k. From memory it was about 10 years old, new ones cost around 30k at the time. Houses in the area ran about 180+. Mortgage on the 2bed mobile home was about 300/mo, a 1 bed apartment would run you about 600/mo, and mortgage on a 180k house was somewhere around 1500/mo. Very cheap living. About the only thing cheaper is a caravan. Don't get "mobile home" confused with "recreational vehicle". RVs cost quite a pretty penny. Mobile homes can be fairly swank (particularly the ones marketed to retirees), but on the low end they're about the cheapest accommodation you can get in the states. What you're gonna find in deepest darkest rural Tennessee, where the median income is a few k above poverty, is gonna be the low end stuff. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From russellandness at clear.net.nz Wed Dec 7 19:42:39 2011 From: russellandness at clear.net.nz (RUSSELL) Date: Wed Dec 7 19:43:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> Message-ID: <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> Yea but this isn't the states -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 6:51 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 12/7/11 5:49 PM, RUSSELL wrote: > Gee Ed you might have got that wrong I can name a number of people that live > in mobile homes/buses that certainly have a bob or 2. Do you know what 1 of > these cost. The one I bought in 1994, 2nd hand in Austin Texas, was about 15k. From memory it was about 10 years old, new ones cost around 30k at the time. Houses in the area ran about 180+. Mortgage on the 2bed mobile home was about 300/mo, a 1 bed apartment would run you about 600/mo, and mortgage on a 180k house was somewhere around 1500/mo. Very cheap living. About the only thing cheaper is a caravan. Don't get "mobile home" confused with "recreational vehicle". RVs cost quite a pretty penny. Mobile homes can be fairly swank (particularly the ones marketed to retirees), but on the low end they're about the cheapest accommodation you can get in the states. What you're gonna find in deepest darkest rural Tennessee, where the median income is a few k above poverty, is gonna be the low end stuff. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Dec 7 22:34:47 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Dec 7 22:34:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> Message-ID: <4EDF3337.2060705@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 7:42 PM, RUSSELL wrote: > Yea but this isn't the states Um, yeah. But the place where the news article that we're talking about happened is Obion County Tennessee, which is most definitely the states... Any generalizations I may have made about the socioeconomic conditions of folks in mobile homes in TN should not be automatically assumed to also apply to New Zealand. I'd have hoped that would be somewhat obvious? But if it's not... Tennessee is not New Zealand. There, I fixed it for you. :D -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Wed Dec 7 22:51:33 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Wed Dec 7 22:51:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- Fire force dispute Message-ID: <011301ccb4c5$cdecd8b0$69c68a10$@co.nz> http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/kaikoura/6094108/Firemen-say -issues-smouldering From ed at hintz.org Thu Dec 8 13:11:43 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Dec 8 13:12:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> On 12/7/11 1:23 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > After reading what Mr Hall said, to some extent I'd have to agree, however > he does seem a little out of touch, especially when you look at the poor > recruitment and retention statistics many brigades suffer. I can certainly understand it. As the boss, it's very easy to say if you don't like it, f**k off. Quite a lot easier to sweep an underlying issue under the rug than to address it. And it's a rather common corporate response. Quite frankly, the minimum Mike has to do is make the problem go away until he's no longer the guy holding the bag when it all turns to crap. Corporate worlds adore that; there's no incentive to fix things for the long term, it costs more. Just limp along to the next financial report then move on to some other outfit before it all falls apart. Witness the Wall St meltdown. Ultimately, if there are endemic issues within the brigade structure which are causing friction, they need to be resolved. Every brigade is different, and perhaps for some brigades that *is* the solution; ride the malcontents out of town on a rail. F**k 'em, let 'em go be vollies somewhere else where their communist tendencies will be tolerated. But a one size f**k 'em all solution is straight up stupid and shortsighted. Brush this under the rug, and guess what? At some point, they'll take you up on that offer. Particularly the younger ones, who didn't grow up in a father knows best world. And it could well mean a brigade folds. Not smart. Not at all. 'Course, I am an IT manager. So yeah, I'm pretty accustomed to herding cats(1). Yeah, it can be challenging, but when you get it right you end up with some damned good crews. I'll take a free thinking commie any day over a braindead MCSE who follows orders nicely. I know from hard experience which one is going to make my pain go away when the excrement encounters the PPV device. :) (1) if you've never seen it, the EDS ad that aired during the Superbowl in 2000 was pure genius: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Thu Dec 8 13:37:47 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Dec 8 13:37:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EE006DB.3050407@hintz.org> On 12/8/11 1:11 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > I can certainly understand it. As the boss, it's very easy to say if you > don't like it, f**k off. Quite a lot easier to sweep an underlying issue > under the rug than to address it. And it's a rather common corporate Probably worth noting here, before somebody gets excited and nails me to a cross... I'm not saying Mike's doing (or did) that for his whole term. The shiny new Iveco (I was going to say in our engine bay, but it's at the shop, and we have Pitchy's Pig right now) is testament to that. So's the new BA sets. He's done plenty of good stuff since I've been around. Credit where credit is due, some very good things have happened under his watch. But on this issue I'll stand my ground; as quoted in K1 it's a very shortsighted and foolish approach in regards to getting a grip on the reality of volly brigade structures to come. Like it or not, it's progress. Father knows best started going out of favor with the general developed world decades ago, and I predict it's coming soon to a fire station near you... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From mgkmontys at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 8 14:21:26 2011 From: mgkmontys at xtra.co.nz (Mark Montgomery) Date: Thu Dec 8 14:21:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Something light-hearted In-Reply-To: References: <954835B32F1DB84F961EE756E7D31682DFF2FBD3C7@NZWLGEXCLU02.ad.dol.govt.nz> Message-ID: <1323307286.65845.YahooMailNeo@web96105.mail.aue.yahoo.com> Hope you are well and look deeply into this email it is an in depth message!!!! I have been in many places, but I've never been in Cahoots. Apparently, you can't go alone. You have to be in Cahoots with someone.. I've also never been in Cognito. I hear no one recognizes you there. I have, however, been in Sane. They don't have an airport; you have to be driven there. I have made several trips there, thanks to my friends, family and work. I would like to go to Conclusions, but you have to jump, and I'm not too much on physical activity anymore I have also been in Doubt. That is a sad place to go, and I try not to visit there too often. I've been in Flexible, but only when it was very important to stand firm Sometimes I'm in Capable, and I go there more often as I'm getting older. One of my favourite places to be is in Suspense! It really gets the adrenalin flowing and pumps up the old heart! At my age I need all the stimuli I can get! I may have been in Continent, but I don't remember what country I was in. It's an age thing. PLEASE DO YOUR PART! Today is one of the many National Mental Health Days throughout the year. You can do your bit by remembering to send an e-mail to at least one unstable person. My job is done! Life is too short for negative drama & petty things. So laugh insanely, love truly and forgive quickly! From one unstable person to another. I hope everyone is happy in your head - we're all doing pretty good in mine! From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Dec 8 17:18:53 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Dec 8 17:19:19 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- Fire force dispute In-Reply-To: <011301ccb4c5$cdecd8b0$69c68a10$@co.nz> References: <011301ccb4c5$cdecd8b0$69c68a10$@co.nz> Message-ID: <1323317933.1934.2.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I can't fine the Oaro/Goose Bay Fire force on the list of member of the UFBA - May be some one out there should go and see them and encourage them to join. On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 22:51 +1300, Stephen wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/kaikoura/6094108/Firemen-say > -issues-smouldering > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From pitchey at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 9 00:58:06 2011 From: pitchey at xtra.co.nz (John Pitchford) Date: Fri Dec 9 00:58:22 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> Message-ID: <001501ccb5a0$a5a99150$f0fcb3f0$@co.nz> What I was trying to point out to Ed is that he shouldn't be generalising people just because they live in a mobile home. Their place of residence doesn't immediately make them too poor to afford insurance, nor does it make them rich, without knowing the people personally you can't really say! J -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of RUSSELL Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 7:43 p.m. To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yea but this isn't the states -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 6:51 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 12/7/11 5:49 PM, RUSSELL wrote: > Gee Ed you might have got that wrong I can name a number of people > that live > in mobile homes/buses that certainly have a bob or 2. Do you know what > 1 of > these cost. The one I bought in 1994, 2nd hand in Austin Texas, was about 15k. From memory it was about 10 years old, new ones cost around 30k at the time. Houses in the area ran about 180+. Mortgage on the 2bed mobile home was about 300/mo, a 1 bed apartment would run you about 600/mo, and mortgage on a 180k house was somewhere around 1500/mo. Very cheap living. About the only thing cheaper is a caravan. Don't get "mobile home" confused with "recreational vehicle". RVs cost quite a pretty penny. Mobile homes can be fairly swank (particularly the ones marketed to retirees), but on the low end they're about the cheapest accommodation you can get in the states. What you're gonna find in deepest darkest rural Tennessee, where the median income is a few k above poverty, is gonna be the low end stuff. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Fri Dec 9 08:45:38 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Fri Dec 9 08:45:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1378651537.6260021.1323373538219.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0130.prod> I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Shayne Shayne Kennedy -- New Zealand Confirm that you know Shayne Kennedy: https://www.linkedin.com/e/acs25g-gvy6fp9j-1c/isd/5176760357/fkkc2Zql/?hs=false&tok=3y8tjCaD0xzl01 -- You are receiving Invitation to Connect emails. Click to unsubscribe: http://www.linkedin.com/e/acs25g-gvy6fp9j-1c/vS6GewSHkCo1GR4wyj66Z45bMCmJP4bfoVhDhB/goo/vollynet%40vollynet%2Eorg%2Enz/20061/I1804630311_1/?hs=false&tok=0xDHB9LVIxzl01 (c) 2011 LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. From blakjak at blakjak.net Fri Dec 9 09:24:26 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Fri Dec 9 09:24:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <1378651537.6260021.1323373538219.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0130.prod> References: <1378651537.6260021.1323373538219.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0130.prod> Message-ID: <4EE11CFA.4000703@blakjak.net> Advice for Shayne and others who might do this in the future... don't throw your address book at social networks. Mailing lists aren't people to whom you can 'connect'. :-) Mark. On 09/12/11 08:45, Shayne Kennedy wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. > > - Shayne > > Shayne Kennedy > -- > New Zealand > > Confirm that you know Shayne Kennedy: > From ben at diversity.net.nz Fri Dec 9 09:26:04 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Fri Dec 9 09:26:20 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <4EE11CFA.4000703@blakjak.net> References: <1378651537.6260021.1323373538219.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0130.prod> <4EE11CFA.4000703@blakjak.net> Message-ID: in his defence - most of us have made that mistake before.... ;-) b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Advice for Shayne and others who might do this in the future... don't > throw your address book at social networks. > Mailing lists aren't people to whom you can 'connect'. :-) > > Mark. > > > > On 09/12/11 08:45, Shayne Kennedy wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. > > > > - Shayne > > > > Shayne Kennedy > > -- > > New Zealand > > > > Confirm that you know Shayne Kennedy: > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Fri Dec 9 10:11:26 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Fri Dec 9 10:11:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: References: <1378651537.6260021.1323373538219.JavaMail.app@ela4-app0130.prod> <4EE11CFA.4000703@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <8259DC81-EE9F-4108-BCFA-982334257D77@trainforsafety.co.nz> Unfortunately done. By my office manager sorry Sent from my iPhone On 9/12/2011, at 9:26 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > in his defence - most of us have made that mistake before.... ;-) > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Advice for Shayne and others who might do this in the future... don't >> throw your address book at social networks. >> Mailing lists aren't people to whom you can 'connect'. :-) >> >> Mark. >> >> >> >> On 09/12/11 08:45, Shayne Kennedy wrote: >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. >>> >>> - Shayne >>> >>> Shayne Kennedy >>> -- >>> New Zealand >>> >>> Confirm that you know Shayne Kennedy: >>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 9 12:57:47 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 9 12:58:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <001501ccb5a0$a5a99150$f0fcb3f0$@co.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> <001501ccb5a0$a5a99150$f0fcb3f0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4EE14EFB.50102@hintz.org> On 12/9/11 12:58 AM, John Pitchford wrote: > What I was trying to point out to Ed is that he shouldn't be generalising > people just because they live in a mobile home. > > Their place of residence doesn't immediately make them too poor to afford > insurance, nor does it make them rich, without knowing the people personally > you can't really say! Of course not. But. Odds is odds. Trailers in rural TN where the median income is 4k over poverty level are not generally occupied by fortune 500ers. The question was posed, why not bill them for services rendered, and I responded it's because there's a high likelihood they'd not pay. Probably because you can't get blood from a turnip. Simple as that. Sure, it's *possible* that these particular punters are flush with cash, but there's a whole lot of clues in the article to the contrary, like not forking over the 75/year fee and not having any insurance. And their statement that after their 2 free days in Red Cross housing were up, they had no idea what they would do. Combine that with their location and living arrangements, and I'd posit the most likely explanation is they're dirt poor. If they're not, then they're remarkably stupid. Quite frankly benefit of the doubt goes to dirt poor. I'm not bagging on trailer owners. I was one for 5 years. Why? Because it was really cheap and I was really poor. No harm, no foul, no disrespect. Just reality. In the US, trailers are some of the most inexpensive housing outside of the projects, and for that very reason a very large percentage of trailer owners are in them because they don't have much other options. And good on 'em. They're still homeowners, in charge of their own destiny, and able to more efficiently use their money. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From pitchey at xtra.co.nz Fri Dec 9 13:05:22 2011 From: pitchey at xtra.co.nz (John Pitchford) Date: Fri Dec 9 13:05:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <4EE14EFB.50102@hintz.org> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> <001501ccb5a0$a5a99150$f0fcb3f0$@co.nz> <4EE14EFB.50102@hintz.org> Message-ID: <000001ccb606$3f243be0$bd6cb3a0$@co.nz> " I'm not bagging on trailer owners. I was one for 5 years. Why? Because it was really cheap and I was really poor. No harm, no foul, no disrespect. Just reality. In the US, trailers are some of the most inexpensive housing outside of the projects, and for that very reason a very large percentage of trailer owners are in them because they don't have much other options. And good on 'em. They're still homeowners, in charge of their own destiny, and able to more efficiently use their money." That's good to hear, your earlier post kinda sounded like you were, hence my posts. Good show. J -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011 12:58 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: Re: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 12/9/11 12:58 AM, John Pitchford wrote: > What I was trying to point out to Ed is that he shouldn't be > generalising people just because they live in a mobile home. > > Their place of residence doesn't immediately make them too poor to > afford insurance, nor does it make them rich, without knowing the > people personally you can't really say! Of course not. But. Odds is odds. Trailers in rural TN where the median income is 4k over poverty level are not generally occupied by fortune 500ers. The question was posed, why not bill them for services rendered, and I responded it's because there's a high likelihood they'd not pay. Probably because you can't get blood from a turnip. Simple as that. Sure, it's *possible* that these particular punters are flush with cash, but there's a whole lot of clues in the article to the contrary, like not forking over the 75/year fee and not having any insurance. And their statement that after their 2 free days in Red Cross housing were up, they had no idea what they would do. Combine that with their location and living arrangements, and I'd posit the most likely explanation is they're dirt poor. If they're not, then they're remarkably stupid. Quite frankly benefit of the doubt goes to dirt poor. I'm not bagging on trailer owners. I was one for 5 years. Why? Because it was really cheap and I was really poor. No harm, no foul, no disrespect. Just reality. In the US, trailers are some of the most inexpensive housing outside of the projects, and for that very reason a very large percentage of trailer owners are in them because they don't have much other options. And good on 'em. They're still homeowners, in charge of their own destiny, and able to more efficiently use their money. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 9 13:10:08 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 9 13:10:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] TN FFs refuse to put out fire, again... In-Reply-To: <000001ccb606$3f243be0$bd6cb3a0$@co.nz> References: <4EDE73BA.301@hintz.org> <4EDE980B.7070500@blakjak.net> <4EDE9E41.2080505@hintz.org> <000001ccb46b$e3fd9950$abf8cbf0$@co.nz> <001a01ccb49b$946e9f30$bd4bdd90$@net.nz> <4EDEFEB7.1080608@hintz.org> <002101ccb4ab$6a372d30$3ea58790$@net.nz> <001501ccb5a0$a5a99150$f0fcb3f0$@co.nz> <4EE14EFB.50102@hintz.org> <000001ccb606$3f243be0$bd6cb3a0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4EE151E0.50705@hintz.org> On 12/9/11 1:05 PM, John Pitchford wrote: > That's good to hear, your earlier post kinda sounded like you were, hence my > posts. Heh. I've been on the other side of it mate. In the opera performance program at UT Austin quite a few of my fellow students turned up their noses at my choice of living arrangements. But walked outta there several 10s of thousands of dollars less in student loan debt. They can thumb their noses all they want, I was laughing all the way to the bank. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 13:53:36 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Fri Dec 9 13:54:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4ee15c19.4a9bec0a.5177.6041@mx.google.com> > I agree, but disagree, and reserve the right to agree, or disagree, should I wish to do so, as agreement or disagreement shall arise, in the context of NZFS management or otherwise, and in accordance with whether or not a shit is given. Nah, I hear you, but it's a tedious topic and I don't think we can honestly conduct a discussion of any worth; At best we might find similarities in our ideologies and feel connected and communal from the warm cuddly feelings aroused by social interaction of that variety. It'd be much easier to see if we have the same favourite colour or flavour of ice cream, which would produce the same warm cuddly feelings. > 'Course, I am an IT manager. So yeah, I'm pretty accustomed to herding > cats(1). Yeah, it can be challenging, but when you get it right you end > up with some damned good crews. I'll take a free thinking commie any day > over a braindead MCSE who follows orders nicely. I know from hard > experience which one is going to make my pain go away when the excrement > encounters the PPV device. :) You'll love this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U From ed at hintz.org Fri Dec 9 14:22:05 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Dec 9 14:22:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4ee15c19.4a9bec0a.5177.6041@mx.google.com> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com> <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org> <4ee15c19.4a9bec0a.5177.6041@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EE162BD.7030008@hintz.org> On 12/9/11 1:53 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > You'll love this then: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U Guilty as charged. One of the big bummers about coming to NZ was the lack of Sudbury schools. Their model makes way more sense than the existing one. Most of the really bright folks I've known managed to gain success in spite of the education systems that they were forced to endure. To put it in a fire perspective. Some years back, Tony took us up to Plimmerton School on training night, had the appliance parked about 2m away from the porch of the classroom block. Drill was, get the entire crew from the truck to the porch without touching the ground or endangering anybody. Immediate reaction, folks started working on ideas to use the 10.5 ladder to build a bridge, clambering out on the roof to pull out hose to walk on top of, etc. Me? I asked what the rules were. I was told there were none. So I said "let's move the truck". Once that 2m gap had closed to bugger all we simply stepped off. Easy. Apparently he'd been doing this little drill for some years and nobody'd ever caught that rather obvious and simple solution. Did mean he had to suddenly come up with a new plan for training night tho. Heh. As OIC, I want all my crew to be coming up with creative solutions and throwing 'em out at me. I don't always get the great ideas myself but I'm usually pretty good at recognizing them when they get passed along, and they make my pain go away. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tds_4 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 9 15:02:19 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Fri Dec 9 15:02:39 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EE162BD.7030008@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <4edeb20a.649dec0a.1e10.01a1@mx.google.com>, <4EE000BF.30603@hintz.org>, <4ee15c19.4a9bec0a.5177.6041@mx.google.com>, <4EE162BD.7030008@hintz.org> Message-ID: a bosses biggest resource is their crew.. > Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:22:05 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 12/9/11 1:53 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > > > You'll love this then: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U > > Guilty as charged. > > One of the big bummers about coming to NZ was the lack of Sudbury > schools. Their model makes way more sense than the existing one. Most of > the really bright folks I've known managed to gain success in spite of > the education systems that they were forced to endure. > > To put it in a fire perspective. Some years back, Tony took us up to > Plimmerton School on training night, had the appliance parked about 2m > away from the porch of the classroom block. Drill was, get the entire > crew from the truck to the porch without touching the ground or > endangering anybody. > > Immediate reaction, folks started working on ideas to use the 10.5 > ladder to build a bridge, clambering out on the roof to pull out hose to > walk on top of, etc. Me? I asked what the rules were. I was told there > were none. So I said "let's move the truck". Once that 2m gap had closed > to bugger all we simply stepped off. Easy. Apparently he'd been doing > this little drill for some years and nobody'd ever caught that rather > obvious and simple solution. Did mean he had to suddenly come up with a > new plan for training night tho. Heh. > > As OIC, I want all my crew to be coming up with creative solutions and > throwing 'em out at me. I don't always get the great ideas myself but > I'm usually pretty good at recognizing them when they get passed along, > and they make my pain go away. :) > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Sat Dec 10 15:48:12 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Sat Dec 10 15:48:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> Message-ID: <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> What is the New Zealand Fire Service and the Commission telling us in this K1 interview. Basically they are telling us to put up and shut up. Somehow by being a Volunteer Fire-fighter your rights should be reduced. They are telling us that we should accept what we are given which generally is the minimum the Fire Service and Commission can get away with. At least our legislators believe we should get recreational facilities at our station even if the Fire Service think we should make do with mud floors and veteran appliances see Fire Service Act sec44 (1)(d) ?the provision in any of its buildings of means of recreation for members of any fire brigade under its control?. Apparently there is a minority of moaners out there ? I would put it this way, that there is a minority of people willing to express a majority opinion openly. There is a concerted effort from the FS management and UFBA executive to marginalise the voices on Vollynet and this interview is part of that. Maybe engagement in the argument would be a better path to take? Minorities: Addressing the subject of minorities, there are others out there, like the CFO representing a minority of fire-fighters and the delegates at the UFBA conference represent a minority of the total membership, of which there are 485, with only 202 delegates (41.6%) being present and only 23% required as a majority. The only majority out there is the silent majority and I think Vollynet represents this group better than any other. Like most of us we joined our local Volunteer Fire Brigade to serve our community. After joining we find that the rules are out of date and undemocratic. Through a democratic process, we have the right to change these rules bringing them into a modern format that fit in to today?s world. For example, a CFO can no longer appoint themselves as a delegate, they must be nominated and elected from their brigade. Despite what the present and past chairs of the Fire Service Commission say publicly their civil servants appear to just pay lip service and continue to interfere in what is strictly our business. The interview in K1 is an example of this. Let us be clear the Fire Service and the Fire Service Commission are NOT governing bodies over Volunteer Fire Brigades. Volunteer Fire Brigades are self governing and democratic institutions. This is the way it was when I joined and has not changed. Another rule that has been in existence since I joined is the rule allowing brigades to change their rules. The Fire Service is exactly what is says, a service agency set up to meet the need of the Volunteer Fire Brigades. These services include buildings including ?mean of recreation?, training and command and control during an incident. In conclusion I say make your voice count ? make sure your Brigade is properly represented at conference as this is where we can change things and remember that as an incorporated society your rules are strictly your business. As long as you can maintain your commitment under the agreement of service you have with the Fire Service Commission you have the right do what is right for your community. On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 22:15 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like > the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner > rather than later would be better". > > Curious retention strategy there... > From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Sat Dec 10 16:18:26 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Sat Dec 10 16:18:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Community donations/fundraising In-Reply-To: <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org> <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <1323487106.90472.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> There is many Brigades nationwide that have over the years purchased items for their Station/Brigade using funds raised within their communities or using grants from charitable organisations. Examples of this have been various support vehicles and other pieces of equipment. My question is..... What are your views regarding operational equipment used on appliances that isnt supplied by the NZFS? (TIC cameras, lighting units, cutting gear etc) Have any of your Brigades been denied the use of gear purchased by the community funds? If you were lucky enough to have some funds in the bank to spend on your Brigade, what would you spend it on/purchase. It has been my long held thought that the?FS should purchase all operational equipment, but concede their are situations whereby Brigades don't fit the criteria for supply by NZFS. Thoughts...... From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 10 16:21:11 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sat Dec 10 16:21:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... In-Reply-To: <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <4EDDDD3C.5000800@hintz.org>, <1323485292.1841.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: This is why I believe the question was valid that was put to Ric Carlyon regarding the FS involvement in the development of the rules. I know it can be touchy and there has to be goodwill from both sides, but to involve them in the development rather than saying this is how we want it, now up to you to agree or disagree, takes that power away. The numbers alone suggest that the ball is in our court. Wonder if his sentiments would be the same if all of a sudden 50% of the volly workforce up and left.. however there is another approach to it, and we can be our own worst enemies when it comes to things we are unhappy about. The amount of moaning and complaining that goes on around the table on stations is huge. This sort of negativity and disruption can be ilk to the likes of a fire brigade, and I'm sure a lot of brigades have their person they'd rather have leave than promote. And if people don't want to leave, then they have the option of getting themselves into a position that could affect change. There are a lot more talkers than doers out there.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Now, that's an interesting volly retainment strategy... > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:48:12 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > What is the New Zealand Fire Service and the Commission telling us in > this K1 interview. > > Basically they are telling us to put up and shut up. Somehow by being a > Volunteer Fire-fighter your rights should be reduced. > > They are telling us that we should accept what we are given which > generally is the minimum the Fire Service and Commission can get away > with. At least our legislators believe we should get recreational > facilities at our station even if the Fire Service think we should make > do with mud floors and veteran appliances see Fire Service Act sec44 > (1)(d) ?the provision in any of its buildings of means of recreation for > members of any fire brigade under its control?. > > Apparently there is a minority of moaners out there ? I would put it > this way, that there is a minority of people willing to express a > majority opinion openly. There is a concerted effort from the FS > management and UFBA executive to marginalise the voices on Vollynet and > this interview is part of that. Maybe engagement in the argument would > be a better path to take? > > Minorities: Addressing the subject of minorities, there are others out > there, like the CFO representing a minority of fire-fighters and the > delegates at the UFBA conference represent a minority of the total > membership, of which there are 485, with only 202 delegates (41.6%) > being present and only 23% required as a majority. > > The only majority out there is the silent majority and I think Vollynet > represents this group better than any other. > > Like most of us we joined our local Volunteer Fire Brigade to serve our > community. > After joining we find that the rules are out of date and undemocratic. > Through a democratic process, we have the right to change these rules > bringing them into a modern format that fit in to today?s world. For > example, a CFO can no longer appoint themselves as a delegate, they must > be nominated and elected from their brigade. > > Despite what the present and past chairs of the Fire Service Commission > say publicly their civil servants appear to just pay lip service and > continue to interfere in what is strictly our business. The interview in > K1 is an example of this. > > Let us be clear the Fire Service and the Fire Service Commission are NOT > governing bodies over Volunteer Fire Brigades. Volunteer Fire Brigades > are self governing and democratic institutions. This is the way it was > when I joined and has not changed. > > Another rule that has been in existence since I joined is the rule > allowing brigades to change their rules. > > The Fire Service is exactly what is says, a service agency set up to > meet the need of the Volunteer Fire Brigades. These services include > buildings including ?mean of recreation?, training and command and > control during an incident. > > In conclusion I say make your voice count ? make sure your Brigade is > properly represented at conference as this is where we can change things > and remember that as an incorporated society your rules are strictly > your business. As long as you can maintain your commitment under the > agreement of service you have with the Fire Service Commission you have > the right do what is right for your community. > > > On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 22:15 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the latest K1, Mike Hall is apparently saying that if I don't like > > the structure within my brigade I should shut up or f**k off. "Sooner > > rather than later would be better". > > > > Curious retention strategy there... > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise