From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Mon Nov 14 07:45:23 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Mon Nov 14 07:45:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , , , , <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> ,, , <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271> ,, , <4EBDAC98.2070602@hintz.org> ,, , , <1321083117.7800.16.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , <002a01cca114$d7454240$85cfc6c0$@xnet.co.nz> , <1321092652.7800.31.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <1321209923.1895.7.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I agree the power of three thousand volunteers. If every one of us asked every political candidate who they come across in the next two weeks what will they do to improve the resources and facilities for volunteers, our voice will be heard. The UFBA method is to sit in a silos with the FS and FSC to pontificate, when they have a resource of three thousand people to call on. So make the effort over the next two weeks and have a voice. On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 23:58 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > the volly sector has alot more power than they care to exercise.. > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:10:52 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > At the end of the day they own the building, the gear and the big red > > > Truck > > > > In the case at Little River they own a 24 year old veteran little flick > > book value zero dollars. > > > > We have a support vehicle that has a greater book value purchased by our > > community, on that we have a defibrillator purchased by our community. > > > > Our building is a joint owned between the community and FS and built by > > the community. > > > > Christchurch City Council has places a brand new tanker at our station > > in a brand new shed. > > > > So the answer is we owe the FS and FSC nothing while we and 3000 other > > volunteers cover there big back side. > > > > I suggest that we get over the idea that we owe the FSC and the FS some > > debt of gratitude. > > > > The FSC and the FS seem to be very concerned about their BRAND image - > > well who gives them such a good brand image - yes the volunteers. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 21:26 +1300, Chris Nelson wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I understand where you are coming from but I envisage the FS and the FSC need to know that a brigade is representing them appropriately. At the end of the day they own the building, the gear and the big red truck and any mishaps that may occur does reflect on the brigade and the NZFS. > > > > > > I am not saying there should not be flexibility as I like the ideal of a brigade being able to add rules as they see fit but I can also understand the expectation of the FS. > > > > > > What other emergency activities are you referring to? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family > > > Sent: Saturday, 12 November 2011 8:32 p.m. > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I think we are all on the same track, each brigade is like and individual with different make ups of people, community, community needs, risks etc.. > > > > > > We therefore need a set of rules that allow brigades to adapt to their individual aspirations. > > > > > > As long we can up hold the requirement of the Agreement of Service we all have with the FSC we should be able to carry out other emergency service activities. > > > > > > I do not believe that we want to be but in to a box controlled by the FS because the are not members of the communities we serve. > > > > > > > > > So for me it is important to have a set of rules that allow brigades to be individual and independent. If a brigades wants to fit into the FSC box that is their choice. > > > > > > Geoff > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2011-11-12 at 16:36 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Further, I agree with Ian, the possibility of having two seats of power is dangerous and can split the brigade. Hence my comments regarding LRVFB's submission. > > > > > > > > To have the chief AND the chair have the authority to revoke a membership (amongst other things) provides avenue for argument. one or the other.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: tds_4@hotmail.com > > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:33:04 +1300 > > > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > And in a volunteer zone that sometimes takes who they can get out of > > > > > necessity, that 'right mix of people' is not a reality > > > > > > > > > > Again, a committe with CFO as chair. not veto, but can have the swinging vote if tied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:15:36 +1300 > > > > > > From: ed@hintz.org > > > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > On 11/12/11 11:27 AM, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some 'side taking'? > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience has been that the side-talking, disruption, and > > > > > > disharmony are a result of the people, not the organizational > > > > > > structure. We had an environment where the CFO was the undisputed > > > > > > CFO+Mgmt Chair, and we had all of the above in spades. It was unpleasant. > > > > > > > > > > > > I daresay with the right mixture of people, a separation between > > > > > > operational and social leadership will be perfectly harmonious. > > > > > > Likewise, with the wrong mixture of people, a > > > > > > one-ring-to-rule-them-all leader will be a backstabbing snark fest. > > > > > > > > > > > > The advantage I see to the separation model is that it tends to > > > > > > erode at the traditional CFO=God model, which I'm all for. With a > > > > > > well adjusted populace neither model will create significant > > > > > > disruption, and with a maladjusted one there is less likelihood > > > > > > for abuse of power (on any side), as there is simply much less centralized power to abuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Hintz > > > > > > ed@hintz.org > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From russellandness at clear.net.nz Mon Nov 14 12:45:05 2011 From: russellandness at clear.net.nz (RUSSELL) Date: Mon Nov 14 12:45:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] FW: Outstanding contracts in Streetlink that have missed pay cut off - Please advise Message-ID: <001e01cca25e$452c52e0$cf84f8a0$@net.nz> From: Pay Queries [mailto:payqueries@pmpdistribution.co.nz] Sent: Monday, 14 November 2011 11:37 a.m. To: Cook, Russell & Vannessa Subject: Outstanding contracts in Streetlink that have missed pay cut off - Please advise Hi Vanessa Just copied the list - please advise mainly October ones - Thanks -944344 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Gage*, Wetiri Rotorua 30/10/11 -944289 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Campbell *, Emma Pukehangi 25/10/11 -944288 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Tamai, Tennessee Ngongotaha 24/10/11 -944173 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Scammell, Diane Rotorua 10/10/11 -944199 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Manulrirangi, Taylor Pukehangi 13/10/11 -944417 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Hamilton-Burt, Olivia Springfield 08/11/11 -944464 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Taylor, Wiremu-Ponga Mangakakahi 13/11/11 -944463 Vannessa Cook NOR 6072 Lawrence *, Nicholas Koutu 13/11/11 Kind Regards, Jacque Fenton Field Pay Officer PMP Limited Enterprise Park, 44 Dalgety Drive, Wiri 2104 PO Box 76 255, Manukau City, 2241 Ph: (09) 928 4200 DDI: (09) 928 4391 Fax: (09) 928 4433 Email: jacque.fenton@pmpdistribution.co.nz Website: www.pmplimited.co.nz _____ WARNING: This email and any file transmitted with it are confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. 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This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal _____ From the_niss90 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 14 13:15:41 2011 From: the_niss90 at hotmail.com (Josh Kumbaroff) Date: Mon Nov 14 13:15:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM In-Reply-To: <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, , <039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, , <02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Tristan Saunders > To: VollyNet > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tristan > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > b > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > >> > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > >> > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > >> > > >> b > > >> > > >> > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Stephen > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > >> > To: VollyNet > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > >> > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > Ian, > > >> > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > >> > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > >> > unforgivable. > > >> > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > >> > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > >> > > > >> > T. > > >> > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> Ben > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> Tony > > >> >> > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > >> > than > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > >> >> > > >> >> my 2 cents > > >> >> > > >> >> b > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > >> > our > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > >> > damage > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > >> > of > > >> >>> those times. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > >> > pdf > > >> >>> > > >> >>> T. > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> >>> > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> >>> > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> >> > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> >> > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From the_niss90 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 14 13:23:12 2011 From: the_niss90 at hotmail.com (Josh Kumbaroff) Date: Mon Nov 14 13:23:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, ,,<039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, ,,<02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , , , , , , <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Actually I also saw Mr Saunders when Hillary Clinton came to town. My bad. So I have seen him twice* > From: the_niss90@hotmail.com > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:15:41 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. > Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake > > I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. > Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Tristan Saunders > > To: VollyNet > > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Tristan > > > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > > >> > > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > > >> > > > >> b > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Stephen > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > > >> > To: VollyNet > > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > >> > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > Ian, > > > >> > > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > > >> > > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > > >> > unforgivable. > > > >> > > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > > >> > > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > > >> > > > > >> > T. > > > >> > > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> Ben > > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> Tony > > > >> >> > > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > > >> > than > > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > > >> >> > > > >> >> my 2 cents > > > >> >> > > > >> >> b > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > > >> > our > > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > > >> > damage > > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > > >> > of > > > >> >>> those times. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > > >> > pdf > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> T. > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> >>> > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Mon Nov 14 22:31:46 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Mon Nov 14 22:33:45 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM References: , , , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, , , <039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, , , <02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , , , , , , <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <3C65B9B8F3A942D48B82DE2469F2079C@SN2938977271> Yeah funny that. Our AM appears regularly when the cameras are around! ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Kumbaroff To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Actually I also saw Mr Saunders when Hillary Clinton came to town. My bad. So I have seen him twice* > From: the_niss90@hotmail.com > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:15:41 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. > Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake > > I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. > Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Tristan Saunders > > To: VollyNet > > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Tristan > > > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > > >> > > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > > >> > > > >> b > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Stephen > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > > >> > To: VollyNet > > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > >> > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > Ian, > > > >> > > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > > >> > > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > > >> > unforgivable. > > > >> > > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > > >> > > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > > >> > > > > >> > T. > > > >> > > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> Ben > > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> Tony > > > >> >> > > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > > >> > than > > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > > >> >> > > > >> >> my 2 cents > > > >> >> > > > >> >> b > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > > >> > our > > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > > >> > damage > > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > > >> > of > > > >> >>> those times. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > > >> > pdf > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> T. > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> >>> > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > >> > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > >> > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Wed Nov 16 10:32:16 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Nov 16 10:32:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] NEWS: Computer malware disrupts St Johns operations Message-ID: <4EC2DA60.30702@sutorius.org> Staff at St John's Ambulance service were forced to coordinate emergency call-outs using manual radio systems last week after computers systems were hit by a mystery 'virus'. The disruption reportedly began on Wednesday when an unidentified piece of malware started affecting the systems used across the country for paging and radio communications with ambulances in the field, sending staff back to manual radio contact. By Friday morning, engineers at what is the country's main ambulance service had finally managed to restore these systems without identifying how the malware got inside the organisation's security controls. "Anti-virus software protected the systems but as a result of the virus it impacted on some of the system's services, mainly those related to paging and radio. Back-up systems immediately took over when it was detected and the workload was managed manually," said ambulance communications chief, Alan Goudge to a New Zealand news source. Exactly why some systems were downed while others survived is unclear but the fact that several centres were affected would suggest that the malware had the ability to spread within a network, which points to a worm component on one network segment. Unnamed sources are now blaming an infection introduced by way of a USB stick. If so this will be only the latest organisation to be embarrassed by what are often quite basic but fast-spreading pieces of malware. A month ago the Creech US Air Force in Nevada used to direct drone attacks against militants in Afghanistan was left red-faced by reports that non-critical computers had been hit by a worm . The malware turned out to be a simple keylogger for stealing gaming passwords and user names transferred on to the network from a portable storage device. In 2008, the NHS in the UK got its own warning on the potential for trouble with the news that three London hospitals had to be shut for a period after record and admissions systems were disrupted by malware. Source: http://pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/pcw.nsf/news/mystery-virus-disrupts-new-zealand-ambulance-service From the_niss90 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 11:03:51 2011 From: the_niss90 at hotmail.com (Josh Kumbaroff) Date: Wed Nov 16 11:04:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM In-Reply-To: <3C65B9B8F3A942D48B82DE2469F2079C@SN2938977271> References: , , , , , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, , ,,<039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, , ,,<02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <3C65B9B8F3A942D48B82DE2469F2079C@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Yea it is Ian. Our RM is never seen though. Totally opposite. Even when there are major incidents in his own region it appears they are run by managers from other regions > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:31:46 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah funny that. Our AM appears regularly when the cameras are around! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Josh Kumbaroff > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:23 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Actually I also saw Mr Saunders when Hillary Clinton came to town. My bad. So I have seen him twice* > > > From: the_niss90@hotmail.com > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:15:41 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. > > Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake > > > > I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. > > Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > > > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > > > > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > > > > > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Tristan Saunders > > > To: VollyNet > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > > > > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > > > > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Tristan > > > > > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > > > >> > > > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > > > >> > > > > >> b > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Stephen > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > > > >> > To: VollyNet > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > >> > > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > Ian, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > > > >> > unforgivable. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > T. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> Ben > > > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> Tony > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > > > >> > than > > > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> my 2 cents > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> b > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > > > >> > our > > > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > > > >> > damage > > > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >>> those times. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > > > >> > pdf > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> T. > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 16 11:42:36 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 16 11:43:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM References: , , , , , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, , , , <039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, , , , <02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <3C65B9B8F3A942D48B82DE2469F2079C@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Perhaps that credibility is the crux of the NZPFU action against him. In fairness to RM Saunders though he may be well out of his depth operationally at these incidents as he has never been an operational officer, entering the Fire Safety division as a SFF and progressing through to his current rank without returning at any stage to operational firefighting positions, like Station Officer, Senior Station Officer, Divisional Officer, or AFC etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Josh Kumbaroff To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yea it is Ian. Our RM is never seen though. Totally opposite. Even when there are major incidents in his own region it appears they are run by managers from other regions > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:31:46 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah funny that. Our AM appears regularly when the cameras are around! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Josh Kumbaroff > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:23 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Actually I also saw Mr Saunders when Hillary Clinton came to town. My bad. So I have seen him twice* > > > From: the_niss90@hotmail.com > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:15:41 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. > > Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake > > > > I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. > > Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > > > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > > > > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > > > > > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Tristan Saunders > > > To: VollyNet > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > > > > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > > > > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Tristan > > > > > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > > > >> > > > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > > > >> > > > > >> b > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Stephen > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > > > >> > To: VollyNet > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > >> > > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > Ian, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > > > >> > unforgivable. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > T. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> Ben > > > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> Tony > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > > > >> > than > > > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> my 2 cents > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> b > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > > > >> > our > > > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > > > >> > damage > > > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > > > >> > of > > > > >> >>> those times. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > > > >> > pdf > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> T. > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > >> > > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > >> > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From the_niss90 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:15:03 2011 From: the_niss90 at hotmail.com (Josh Kumbaroff) Date: Wed Nov 16 13:15:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , <49893D0501B54375B7E9D3A4024F249B@SN2938977271>, , , ,,<039687FD-FAFE-44A9-AEC9-2E4C76E5DC71@sutorius.org>, , , ,,<02c001cc8efc$60967e40$21c37ac0$@co.nz>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,,<1319105516.12661.YahooMailNeo@web114710.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , <3C65B9B8F3A942D48B82DE2469F2079C@SN2938977271>, , Message-ID: I think you are spot on there Ian. > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:42:36 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Perhaps that credibility is the crux of the NZPFU action against him. In fairness to RM Saunders though he may be well out of his depth operationally at these incidents as he has never been an operational officer, entering the Fire Safety division as a SFF and progressing through to his current rank without returning at any stage to operational firefighting positions, like Station Officer, Senior Station Officer, Divisional Officer, or AFC etc. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Josh Kumbaroff > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:03 AM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Yea it is Ian. Our RM is never seen though. Totally opposite. Even when there are major incidents in his own region it appears they are run by managers from other regions > > > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 22:31:46 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yeah funny that. Our AM appears regularly when the cameras are around! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Josh Kumbaroff > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:23 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Actually I also saw Mr Saunders when Hillary Clinton came to town. My bad. So I have seen him twice* > > > > > From: the_niss90@hotmail.com > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:15:41 +1300 > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Ben, The chch local members have been jumping up and down for years about this, not just since the industrial action. It is just coincidence that the EQ report was released while the NZPFU were taking this action. > > > Darren,Dennis is not a clown, nor is he embarrassing. I have been a fireman in transalpine for 5 years (3 as a volunteer and 2 as a permanent)I have met Brian Butt and Russell Wood (region 1 and 2 managers) during the Feb EQI met Ian Pickard (region 3 manager) at Pike RiverI met Stu Rooney (region 5 manager) when he was with the welfare society in chch after the Sept earthquake > > > > > > I have never met Rob Saunders, (my own manager for 5 years). I have worked at chch city station for 2 years and only seen him once, walking from his office to his car. > > > Would you call that embarrassing Darren? > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:11:56 -0700 > > > > From: vanekdarren@yahoo.com.au > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Unions have their place, but I only support my union if their arguements are sound and based on facts and the facts can be backed up, nothing annoys me more than a union president or similar that just carries on and rants with no basis for their arguement. I am a member of the UFU, and at this time our union isn't to bad, but some I have seen around the country and other countries are just embarassing and I would not pay my union dues to be represented by a clown. > > > > > > > > Good arguements, and fighting for a better service is what they should be about. > > > > > > > > > > > > If your union has a case, then so be it, if not then shut up and stop being embarassing to your members. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Tristan Saunders > > > > To: VollyNet > > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:48 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > well the industrial action is on, so the timing will have to remain as is. Who's to say that they wouldnt be making such comments if it weren't. > > > > > > > > It helps to know some information before saying either way.. Anyone answering yes to my first two questions would have more credibility in commenting than a no answerer... > > > > > > > > The call for resignation is led by the local union. The call for industrial action is led by the national union.. > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:57:12 -0700 > > > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Tristan > > > > > > > > > > My question is whether they'd be jumping up and down if the industrial > > > > > action was not on. My assessment is that they'd likely not be but what > > > > > with that, the National Commander and Chair of the commission changes > > > > > and the opportunity of the report... well you can see your thinking > > > > > > > > > > b > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Have you read the report Ben? Are you aware of other previous events that the union is baseing this on? If the industrial action wasnt on, would your sentiments be the same? If a group is unhappy with their heirarchy, do you not concede that it be appropriate for them to question that, and possibly take action? > > > > > > (probably plenty of other groups who would benefit from such action, but dont take it for various reasons..) > > > > > > > > > > > > No attitude, tone of voice or ulterior point making there, purely questions regarding the decision making.. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 01:14:42 -0700 > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] RE: Transalpine RM > > > > > >> From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > > > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> Denis is a bloody nice guy.... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But this time he's just plain wrong - it just sounds like total sour > > > > > >> grapes. And his contention that it has nothing to do with the current > > > > > >> industrial action just rings hollow to me.... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> b > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > > >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > > >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > > >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Stephen wrote: > > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > The audio for today's radio interview is here:- > > > > > >> > http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2500666/denis- > > > > > >> > fitzmaurice.asx > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Stephen > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2011 11:52 a.m. > > > > > >> > To: VollyNet > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > Ian, > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > There may be "genuine concerns", but are these concerns genuinely about the > > > > > >> > NZFS response in the first two hours in Christchurch? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > If not the NZPFU should be ashamed of themselves... using this awful > > > > > >> > national disaster for old-score-settling political bullshit would be quite > > > > > >> > unforgivable. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > In his interview on National Radio this morning the local NZPFU president > > > > > >> > implied that the Fire Service's strategic response in the first two hours > > > > > >> > was compromised by the RM's non-involvement. Many, many people died in that > > > > > >> > time. How will their relatives feel? > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > If this accusation isn't 100% sincere and genuine, the whole service has > > > > > >> > been badly dishonoured by it. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > T. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On 20/10/2011, at 11:36, "Ian & Heather King" <4kings@nettel.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >> Ben > > > > > >> >> Bear in mind this call was first made well before any earthquakes. It was > > > > > >> > made about time of fatal fire in Kaiapoi, then again after same RM appointed > > > > > >> > his mate from Kaiapoi to the AM job that a number of NZPFU members eminently > > > > > >> > more qualified had applied for? > > > > > >> >> Genuine concerns not industrial sour grapes. > > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> >> From: Ben Kepes > > > > > >> >> To: VollyNet > > > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:29 AM > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] NZPFU call for Transalpine RM resignation > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >> Tony > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> for one of those on the ground, it's hard to see it as anything other > > > > > >> > than > > > > > >> >> industrial sour grapes. The union it seems to me is over-playing its hand > > > > > >> >> and is very close to losing the public sympathy that they have > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> my 2 cents > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> b > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > > > > >> >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > > > > >> >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > > > > >> >> web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > > > >> >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >>> http://issuu.com/mainlandpress/docs/mp30 > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> I hope... really really REALLY hope... that the NZPFU's call for the > > > > > >> >>> resignation of then-Regional Manager for Christchurch over the initial > > > > > >> >>> earthquake response is a very sincere and heartfelt attempt to improve > > > > > >> > our > > > > > >> >>> ability as a service to respond to NZ's next major civil emergency. > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> Its obviously damaging to our public reputation; but sometimes such > > > > > >> > damage > > > > > >> >>> is necessary in healing festering wounds.... I sincerely hope this is one > > > > > >> > of > > > > > >> >>> those times. > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> It'd be terribly, terribly sad if it were an industrial gambit, and even > > > > > >> >>> worse if it were just tribal sour grapes. > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> For those interested, the Fire Service report on the response in > > > > > >> >>> Christchurch is still available online:- > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> > http://www.fire.org.nz/Media/News/Documents/Christchurch%20inquiry%20report. > > > > > >> > pdf > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> T. > > > > > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz Thu Nov 17 09:35:09 2011 From: simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz (Simon Quirke) Date: Thu Nov 17 09:35:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Training Photos Message-ID: <17bcace6a661adf0da0594a812347521@vodafone.co.nz> If you've had any new recruits go through the course at Rotorua recently, or you're just looking for photo of different training evolutions in progress, have a nosey at: https://picasaweb.google.com/111229540706336459291 [1] Simon Links: ------ [1] https://picasaweb.google.com/111229540706336459291 From tony at sutorius.org Thu Nov 17 14:23:08 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Nov 17 14:23:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook Message-ID: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> Gidday all, I'm advised that recent VollyNet postings are currently featured on the NZPFU's Facebook page, where they are subject to some "unscrupulous commentary". My correspondent on this subject has suggested that the VollyNet archives be made "members only", which may have some merit. Honestly I'd rather not though, I think its good to be out in the open... as it says right there on each posting, this is "open discussion". Unfortunately the NZPFU Facebook page is itself "members only", so most of us are unable to access it should we wish to engage in discussion about the matters raised. I suppose the important takeaway from this (if indeed it is important) is my regular reminder that, while this may feel like a social room yarn at times, in fact VollyNet is a PUBLIC forum, and your post here WILL be widely read and circulated in many places that you will never know and cannot control. Its a good idea to make sure that you have expressed yourself in a way that you would be comfortable defending to anyone because (and I speak from long personal experience) sooner or later you very likely will be. Please also bear in mind when wording your posts that some recipients may be inclined or politically motivated to relay your comments to other forums without context, and perhaps represent them there as representing the views of volunteers in general... which is silly of course, but a realistic reputational risk worth remembering. As any firefighter knows, its a good idea to keep away from the pointlessly incendiary except when you have a good reason to be messing with it. Tony From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 17 14:58:44 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 17 14:58:57 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> On 11/17/11 2:23 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > I'm advised that recent VollyNet postings are currently featured on the > NZPFU's Facebook page, where they are subject to some "unscrupulous > commentary". Gee, what a surprise. Too chickenshit to stand up and engage in a reasonable discussion here, but happy to take stuff from here and post it there for a fish-in-a-barrel shoot to rile up the constituency. I'm shocked, shocked (in best Casablanca fashion). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 17 15:11:53 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 17 15:12:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> Message-ID: Fark 'em I say. But then again i've never been afraid of a bit of a battle. If they want to engage, I for one welcome that. If not, well, that's fine too. B Sent from mobile. Expect brevity and typos On Nov 16, 2011 8:59 PM, "Edmund Hintz" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/17/11 2:23 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > I'm advised that recent VollyNet postings are currently featured on the > > NZPFU's Facebook page, where they are subject to some "unscrupulous > > commentary". > > Gee, what a surprise. Too chickenshit to stand up and engage in a > reasonable discussion here, but happy to take stuff from here and post > it there for a fish-in-a-barrel shoot to rile up the constituency. > > I'm shocked, shocked (in best Casablanca fashion). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tony at sutorius.org Thu Nov 17 15:47:18 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Nov 17 15:47:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271> References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271> Message-ID: <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org> On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some 'side taking'? > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I think the separation is an important and useful one. Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the brigade. The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a tangible change in that direction. Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent professional manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole new way. In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are not successful... without this provision very little changes for ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. Tony From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:56:19 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Nov 17 15:56:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org> References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271>, <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org> Message-ID: maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to be specific in the areas in which each position has authority.. The point is not so much the two positions, but more the cross over of their authorities.. There still needs to be an ultimate. > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 > From: tony@sutorius.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some 'side taking'? > > > > > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I think > the separation is an important and useful one. > > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it > realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they > wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the brigade. > > The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the > democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an > excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a > tangible change in that direction. > > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent professional > manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old > chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative > and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a > great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole > new way. > > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are > voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the > proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is > elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole > brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. > > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are > not successful... without this provision very little changes for > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. > > Tony > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:18:41 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Thu Nov 17 16:19:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4ec47d1a.2959340a.44d5.5aa8@mx.google.com> Keep it open Tony. A failure on the part of individual(s) to handle the jandal when it comes flying off the axis of another persons perspective is one thing, but raping it of context and putting it into the broth of self importance that is the NZPFU only serves to empower our collective resolve to hold said individual(s) in contempt. [Insert four letter expletive] them. Disclaimer: This does not apply to all NZPFU members, but the list of qualifying members is growing. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2011 14:23 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Gidday all, > > I'm advised that recent VollyNet postings are currently featured on the > NZPFU's Facebook page, where they are subject to some "unscrupulous > commentary". > > My correspondent on this subject has suggested that the VollyNet > archives be made "members only", which may have some merit. Honestly > I'd > rather not though, I think its good to be out in the open... as it says > right there on each posting, this is "open discussion". Unfortunately > the NZPFU Facebook page is itself "members only", so most of us are > unable to access it should we wish to engage in discussion about the > matters raised. > > I suppose the important takeaway from this (if indeed it is important) > is my regular reminder that, while this may feel like a social room > yarn > at times, in fact VollyNet is a PUBLIC forum, and your post here WILL > be > widely read and circulated in many places that you will never know and > cannot control. Its a good idea to make sure that you have expressed > yourself in a way that you would be comfortable defending to anyone > because (and I speak from long personal experience) sooner or later you > very likely will be. > > Please also bear in mind when wording your posts that some recipients > may be inclined or politically motivated to relay your comments to > other > forums without context, and perhaps represent them there as > representing > the views of volunteers in general... which is silly of course, but a > realistic reputational risk worth remembering. > > As any firefighter knows, its a good idea to keep away from the > pointlessly incendiary except when you have a good reason to be messing > with it. > > Tony > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 17 16:23:17 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 17 16:23:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4ec47d1a.2959340a.44d5.5aa8@mx.google.com> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> <4ec47d1a.2959340a.44d5.5aa8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4EC47E25.5010900@hintz.org> On 11/17/11 4:18 PM, Anaru Hartley wrote: > [Insert four letter expletive] them. There, I fixed it for you (this is how your post will appear in their Facebook wankfest)... :D -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz Thu Nov 17 17:27:42 2011 From: shayne at trainforsafety.co.nz (Shayne Kennedy) Date: Thu Nov 17 17:28:12 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> Message-ID: <64A462B6-B45C-44A6-AB5F-00FF0879341C@trainforsafety.co.nz> But as tony said and you hippies believe in it is there right in a free democracy as indicated in the discussion over the chief and the social club chair or did I read that wrong Sent from my iPhone On 17/11/2011, at 2:58 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/17/11 2:23 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> I'm advised that recent VollyNet postings are currently featured on the >> NZPFU's Facebook page, where they are subject to some "unscrupulous >> commentary". > > Gee, what a surprise. Too chickenshit to stand up and engage in a > reasonable discussion here, but happy to take stuff from here and post > it there for a fish-in-a-barrel shoot to rile up the constituency. > > I'm shocked, shocked (in best Casablanca fashion). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 17 17:44:42 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 17 17:44:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <64A462B6-B45C-44A6-AB5F-00FF0879341C@trainforsafety.co.nz> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> <64A462B6-B45C-44A6-AB5F-00FF0879341C@trainforsafety.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EC4913A.5050303@hintz.org> On 11/17/11 5:27 PM, Shayne Kennedy wrote: > But as tony said and you hippies believe in it is there right in a free democracy as indicated in the discussion over the chief and the social club chair or did I read that wrong > Given that the overwhelming response to this revelation of their behavior has been to keep Vollynet public, I don't see any contradiction whatsoever. The folks who are keeping a closed our-pals-only forum ain't us hippies. We're actually proposing that our democratic free forum remain so even when we're being told that this means we are likely to have our words taken out of context and berated without a chance to defend ourselves. Everyone has the absolute right to be as much of a jackass as they wish. Why anyone would wish to exercise this right is beyond me. They can rip all the quotes they want out of the archives with impunity; it is their absolute right to do so. Doesn't mean I have to say that I respect the decision, when I find it cowardly at best. But that's how open forums work. And I for one am quite happy to stand up and be counted publicly for what I say here. Pity our NZPFU friends apparently don't have that kind of cajones. Bring it, I say. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 17 18:01:40 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 17 18:01:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] World Famous on Facebook In-Reply-To: <4EC4913A.5050303@hintz.org> References: <4EC461FC.2060901@sutorius.org> <4EC46A54.80508@hintz.org> <64A462B6-B45C-44A6-AB5F-00FF0879341C@trainforsafety.co.nz> <4EC4913A.5050303@hintz.org> Message-ID: I'm with you Ed (but I guess you already knew that) b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/17/11 5:27 PM, Shayne Kennedy wrote: > > > But as tony said and you hippies believe in it is there right in a free > democracy as indicated in the discussion over the chief and the social club > chair or did I read that wrong > > > > Given that the overwhelming response to this revelation of their > behavior has been to keep Vollynet public, I don't see any contradiction > whatsoever. The folks who are keeping a closed our-pals-only forum ain't > us hippies. We're actually proposing that our democratic free forum > remain so even when we're being told that this means we are likely to > have our words taken out of context and berated without a chance to > defend ourselves. > > Everyone has the absolute right to be as much of a jackass as they wish. > Why anyone would wish to exercise this right is beyond me. > > They can rip all the quotes they want out of the archives with impunity; > it is their absolute right to do so. Doesn't mean I have to say that I > respect the decision, when I find it cowardly at best. But that's how > open forums work. And I for one am quite happy to stand up and be > counted publicly for what I say here. Pity our NZPFU friends apparently > don't have that kind of cajones. Bring it, I say. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Thu Nov 17 18:13:56 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Thu Nov 17 18:14:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned Message-ID: <03fc01cca4e7$b9ed0260$2dc70720$@co.nz> http://www.times-age.co.nz/news/firefighters-mourned/1176750/ From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 17 18:44:00 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Nov 17 18:44:20 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271> , <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <1321508640.5069.28.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> The "authority" should be with the brigade membership. The authority to elect the Chief as the chair of the Management Committee or an other member. I think Tony has it right. Authority over operation activities will remain with the Chief or the person appointed by the Chief if the Chief is not a member of the brigade. They will have the responsibility to ensure the brigade is ready to roll. Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what we do. That is after all what we are funded to do by the government and FSC and is the box they want us to fit into. The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum they can get away with while many brigades fund raise themselves for essential equipment. On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to be specific in the areas in which each position has authority.. > > The point is not so much the two positions, but more the cross over of their authorities.. There still needs to be an ultimate. > > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some 'side taking'? > > > > > > > > > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I think > > the separation is an important and useful one. > > > > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it > > realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they > > wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is > > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the brigade. > > > > The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the > > democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an > > excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules > > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a > > tangible change in that direction. > > > > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent professional > > manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old > > chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative > > and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > > brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a > > great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole > > new way. > > > > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are > > voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the > > proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is > > elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole > > brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. > > > > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs > > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their > > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are > > not successful... without this provision very little changes for > > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to > > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:07:32 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Nov 17 19:07:48 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: <1321508640.5069.28.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, , , <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>,, <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271>,, <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org>, , <1321508640.5069.28.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: take away authority and use responsibility then. The adjustments so far offered, suggest that the chair and the chief both equally have similar 'powers' in certain areas. This is troublesome. The bounds of each need to be clear, or if both positions are held by the same person (as with the NC/CE) > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 18:44:00 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The "authority" should be with the brigade membership. The authority to > elect the Chief as the chair of the Management Committee or an other > member. > > I think Tony has it right. > > Authority over operation activities will remain with the Chief or the > person appointed by the Chief if the Chief is not a member of the > brigade. They will have the responsibility to ensure the brigade is > ready to roll. > > > Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what we do. That is > after all what we are funded to do by the government and FSC and is the > box they want us to fit into. > > The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum they can get away > with while many brigades fund raise themselves for essential equipment. > > > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to be specific in the areas in which each position has authority.. > > > > The point is not so much the two positions, but more the cross over of their authorities.. There still needs to be an ultimate. > > > > > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 > > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some 'side taking'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I think > > > the separation is an important and useful one. > > > > > > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it > > > realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they > > > wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is > > > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the brigade. > > > > > > The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the > > > democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an > > > excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules > > > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a > > > tangible change in that direction. > > > > > > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent professional > > > manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old > > > chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative > > > and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > > > brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a > > > great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole > > > new way. > > > > > > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are > > > voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the > > > proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is > > > elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole > > > brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. > > > > > > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs > > > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their > > > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are > > > not successful... without this provision very little changes for > > > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to > > > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From k.and.h at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 17 19:38:46 2011 From: k.and.h at xtra.co.nz (kerry and heather) Date: Thu Nov 17 19:39:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271>, <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org> <1321508640.5069.28.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <2CA9CCB4745B40F197DFB77A16596CAA@ferritsamdx2> I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are >> > not successful... without this provision very little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. Tony, I think this depends entirely on the CFO. If he/she runs their brigade as a democratic unit as opposed to an autocratic unit, the brigade benefits. I know a couple of CFO's who do this. They concentrate on operational stuff and the management committee (made up of members as per the present rules) manages the social stuff. The CFO is still chair of the management committee, however he is only one vote there and one vote at a whole brigade meeting. I think as chair he is in a good position to protect the brigade and advise them if there may be any conflict of interest or, if the management committee is not doing things right. This appears to work bloody well in the brigades that it is being done. The troops have a voice (and use it), they can talk openly and get listened too. These CFO's do not run roughshod over the members. There may also brigades who are dictated to by the CFO who rule with and iron fist in his/her kingdom. This is wrong....The present rules allow for the management committee to run the social side. I personally would like to see education rather than regulation. Maybe the UFBA could offer some form of assistance to brigades who face this issue and help with the learning to manage the brigade as it is intended. I see the present rules as being ok, they are easy to follow, set some specific standards and are written simply. The new ones to me seem to try to force regulation of brigades, use about 100 words to say two things and set the standards much to high for people who are donating time to help. The new sec and treasurer list for example. (not sure we would get either position filled at an agm as these positions are filled by non members as such). I am not sure that the new rules will create a lot of harmony in brigades that suffer from possible over zealous CFO's I think that there would be more benefit in fine tuning the present rules to make things flow better and achieve the same results. Thoughts ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marks Family" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:44 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The "authority" should be with the brigade membership. The authority to > elect the Chief as the chair of the Management Committee or an other > member. > > I think Tony has it right. > > Authority over operation activities will remain with the Chief or the > person appointed by the Chief if the Chief is not a member of the > brigade. They will have the responsibility to ensure the brigade is > ready to roll. > > > Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what we do. That is > after all what we are funded to do by the government and FSC and is the > box they want us to fit into. > > The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum they can get away > with while many brigades fund raise themselves for essential equipment. > > > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to be specific in the areas >> in which each position has authority.. >> >> The point is not so much the two positions, but more the cross over of >> their authorities.. There still needs to be an ultimate. >> >> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 >> > From: tony@sutorius.org >> > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation >> > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: >> > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the >> > > brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now >> > > referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must >> > > report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot >> > > see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without >> > > some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some >> > > 'side taking'? >> > > >> > >> > >> > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I >> > think >> > the separation is an important and useful one. >> > >> > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it >> > realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they >> > wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is >> > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the >> > brigade. >> > >> > The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the >> > democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an >> > excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules >> > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a >> > tangible change in that direction. >> > >> > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent >> > professional >> > manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old >> > chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative >> > and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on >> > brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a >> > great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole >> > new way. >> > >> > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are >> > voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the >> > proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is >> > elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole >> > brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. >> > >> > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are >> > not successful... without this provision very little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. >> > >> > Tony >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From skweek at clear.net.nz Thu Nov 17 21:53:14 2011 From: skweek at clear.net.nz (skweek) Date: Thu Nov 17 21:54:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation Message-ID: <4ec4cb7a.6b.3de0.6239@clear.net.nz> Yes, I agree with Kerry. Our brigade is run in a democratic way and all memebers are able to put their thoughts and wishes to any and all meetings and then a decision is reached. It seems to me that some brigades are still being run by the 'Old School Chief' and a few of you have experienced this, hence the thought that the proposed new rules will 'sort it out.' It could create more problems than it sorts out. Maybe it could be worded something like "the chair of the management committee 'MAY' be elected from the members" should the need arise, as opposed to "will be". If a brigade has serious issues with their CFO, they can already call a special meeting and put in a vote of no confidence. This is preferable to spliting the running of the brigade by having two 'heads of state' Personally, if I thought that there was that much unrest about the way I was running the brigade, I would stand down before it got to a vote of no confidence as I am only a part of the brigade and I believe that no one is irreplaceable! Smooth sailing is more important than anyones ego! Grahame. ----- Original Message Follows ----- > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN > NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a > group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the > scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority > expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they > are >> > not successful... without this provision very > little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the > new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal > performance is greatly undermined. > > Tony, > > I think this depends entirely on the CFO. If he/she runs > their brigade as a democratic unit as opposed to an > autocratic unit, the brigade benefits. I know a couple of > CFO's who do this. They concentrate on operational stuff > and the management committee (made up of members as per > the present rules) manages the social stuff. The CFO is > still chair of the management committee, however he is > only one vote there and one vote at a whole brigade > meeting. I think as chair he is in a good position to > protect the brigade and advise them if there may be any > conflict of interest or, if the management committee is > not doing things right. This appears to work bloody well > in the brigades that it is being done. The troops have a > voice (and use it), they can talk openly and get listened > too. These CFO's do not run roughshod over the members. > There may also brigades who are dictated to by the CFO who > rule with and iron fist in his/her kingdom. This is > wrong....The present rules allow for the management > committee to run the social side. I personally would like > to see education rather than regulation. Maybe the UFBA > could offer some form of assistance to brigades who face > this issue and help with the learning to manage the > brigade as it is intended. I see the present rules as > being ok, they are easy to follow, set some specific > standards and are written simply. The new ones to me seem > to try to force regulation of brigades, use about 100 > words to say two things and set the standards much to > high for people who are donating time to help. The new > sec and treasurer list for example. (not sure we would get > either position filled at an agm as these positions are > filled by non members as such). I am not sure that the > new rules will create a lot of harmony in brigades that > suffer from possible over zealous CFO's I think that there > would be more benefit in fine tuning the present rules to > make things flow better and achieve the same results. > > Thoughts > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marks Family" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:44 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ The "authority" should be with the brigade > > membership. The authority to elect the Chief as the > > chair of the Management Committee or an other member. > > > > I think Tony has it right. > > > > Authority over operation activities will remain with the > > Chief or the person appointed by the Chief if the Chief > > is not a member of the brigade. They will have the > > responsibility to ensure the brigade is ready to roll. > > > > > > Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what > > we do. That is after all what we are funded to do by the > > government and FSC and is the box they want us to fit > into. > > > The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum > > they can get away with while many brigades fund raise > themselves for essential equipment. > > > > > > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders > wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ >> maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to > be specific in the areas >> in which each position has > authority.. >> > >> The point is not so much the two positions, but more > the cross over of >> their authorities.. There still > needs to be an ultimate. >> > >> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 > >> > From: tony@sutorius.org > >> > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > >> > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> > For information and help see > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ >> > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > >> > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the > chief does not run the >> > > brigade". I personally > think he/she does, but the social side now >> > > > referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but > still must >> > > report to the Chief. Call me old > fashioned or whatever but I cannot >> > > see two > positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade > without >> > > some sort of disruption or disharmony, and > at the very least some >> > > 'side taking'? > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, > personally I >> > think > >> > the separation is an important and useful one. > >> > > >> > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't > avoid it >> > realistically) appointed by National > Commander via the RM since they >> > wield such power > under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is >> > > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely > within the >> > brigade. > >> > > >> > The change therefore represents a major movement of > power back to the >> > democratic control of the brigade, > and is therefore in my view an >> > excellent and > commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules >> > > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest > example of a >> > tangible change in that direction. > >> > > >> > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a > excellent >> > professional > >> > manager in your team with only a year's service, and > a grizzled old >> > chief with great operational > credentials but weaker administrative >> > and/or > delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > >> > brigade work to keep everything turning over > smoothly. Now you have a >> > great opportunity to make > the best of your human resources in a whole >> > new way. > >> > > >> > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like > the hippies we are >> > voted to agree our position on > this issue) the weakness in the way the >> > proposed > rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair > is >> > elected by just the Management Committee... it > should be the whole >> > brigade, just as the Secretary > and Treasurer positions are. >> > > >> > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a > group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the > scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority > expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they > are >> > not successful... without this provision very > little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the > new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal > performance is greatly undermined. >> > > >> > Tony > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > of >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 17 22:07:20 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Nov 17 22:07:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: <4ec4cb7a.6b.3de0.6239@clear.net.nz> References: <4ec4cb7a.6b.3de0.6239@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <1321520840.5069.54.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I think that the main thing that will come out of the rule that allows the Chair of the Management Committee to be a Brigade member is to give choice to run the affairs of a Brigade in a way that they want. Brigades will have the choice to keep it the way it is or adapt to reflect the community and the brigades personnel resources as Tony has put below. > > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a > > > excellent professional manager in your team with only a year's service, and > > > a grizzled old chief with great operational > > > credentials but weaker administrative and/or > > > delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > > > brigade work to keep everything turning over > > > smoothly. Now you have a great opportunity to make > > > the best of your human resources in a whole new way. > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 21:53 +1300, skweek wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, I agree with Kerry. > Our brigade is run in a democratic way and all memebers are > able to put their thoughts and wishes to any and all > meetings and then a decision is reached. It seems to me that > some brigades are still being run by the 'Old School Chief' > and a few of you have experienced this, hence the thought > that the proposed new rules will 'sort it out.' > It could create more problems than it sorts out. Maybe it > could be worded something like "the chair of the management > committee 'MAY' be elected from the members" should the need > arise, as opposed to "will be". If a brigade has serious > issues with their CFO, they can already call a special > meeting and put in a vote of no confidence. This is > preferable to spliting the running of the brigade by having > two 'heads of state' > Personally, if I thought that there was that much unrest > about the way I was running the brigade, I would stand down > before it got to a vote of no confidence as I am only a part > of the brigade and I believe that no one is irreplaceable! > Smooth sailing is more important than anyones ego! > > Grahame. > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN > > NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a > > group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the > > scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority > > expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they > > are >> > not successful... without this provision very > > little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the > > new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal > > performance is greatly undermined. > > > > Tony, > > > > I think this depends entirely on the CFO. If he/she runs > > their brigade as a democratic unit as opposed to an > > autocratic unit, the brigade benefits. I know a couple of > > CFO's who do this. They concentrate on operational stuff > > and the management committee (made up of members as per > > the present rules) manages the social stuff. The CFO is > > still chair of the management committee, however he is > > only one vote there and one vote at a whole brigade > > meeting. I think as chair he is in a good position to > > protect the brigade and advise them if there may be any > > conflict of interest or, if the management committee is > > not doing things right. This appears to work bloody well > > in the brigades that it is being done. The troops have a > > voice (and use it), they can talk openly and get listened > > too. These CFO's do not run roughshod over the members. > > There may also brigades who are dictated to by the CFO who > > rule with and iron fist in his/her kingdom. This is > > wrong....The present rules allow for the management > > committee to run the social side. I personally would like > > to see education rather than regulation. Maybe the UFBA > > could offer some form of assistance to brigades who face > > this issue and help with the learning to manage the > > brigade as it is intended. I see the present rules as > > being ok, they are easy to follow, set some specific > > standards and are written simply. The new ones to me seem > > to try to force regulation of brigades, use about 100 > > words to say two things and set the standards much to > > high for people who are donating time to help. The new > > sec and treasurer list for example. (not sure we would get > > either position filled at an agm as these positions are > > filled by non members as such). I am not sure that the > > new rules will create a lot of harmony in brigades that > > suffer from possible over zealous CFO's I think that there > > would be more benefit in fine tuning the present rules to > > make things flow better and achieve the same results. > > > > Thoughts > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marks Family" > > To: "VollyNet" > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:44 PM > > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING > > > IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ The "authority" should be with the brigade > > > membership. The authority to elect the Chief as the > > > chair of the Management Committee or an other member. > > > > > > I think Tony has it right. > > > > > > Authority over operation activities will remain with the > > > Chief or the person appointed by the Chief if the Chief > > > is not a member of the brigade. They will have the > > > responsibility to ensure the brigade is ready to roll. > > > > > > > > > Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what > > > we do. That is after all what we are funded to do by the > > > government and FSC and is the box they want us to fit > > into. > > > > The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum > > > they can get away with while many brigades fund raise > > themselves for essential equipment. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders > > wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see > > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ >> maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to > > be specific in the areas >> in which each position has > > authority.. >> > > >> The point is not so much the two positions, but more > > the cross over of >> their authorities.. There still > > needs to be an ultimate. >> > > >> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 > > >> > From: tony@sutorius.org > > >> > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > > >> > > > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER > > FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> > For information and help see > > www.vollynet.org.nz >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ >> > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > >> > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the > > chief does not run the >> > > brigade". I personally > > think he/she does, but the social side now >> > > > > referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but > > still must >> > > report to the Chief. Call me old > > fashioned or whatever but I cannot >> > > see two > > positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade > > without >> > > some sort of disruption or disharmony, and > > at the very least some >> > > 'side taking'? > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, > > personally I >> > think > > >> > the separation is an important and useful one. > > >> > > > >> > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't > > avoid it >> > realistically) appointed by National > > Commander via the RM since they >> > wield such power > > under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is >> > > > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely > > within the >> > brigade. > > >> > > > >> > The change therefore represents a major movement of > > power back to the >> > democratic control of the brigade, > > and is therefore in my view an >> > excellent and > > commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules >> > > > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest > > example of a >> > tangible change in that direction. > > >> > > > >> > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a > > excellent >> > professional > > >> > manager in your team with only a year's service, and > > a grizzled old >> > chief with great operational > > credentials but weaker administrative >> > and/or > > delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on > > >> > brigade work to keep everything turning over > > smoothly. Now you have a >> > great opportunity to make > > the best of your human resources in a whole >> > new way. > > >> > > > >> > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like > > the hippies we are >> > voted to agree our position on > > this issue) the weakness in the way the >> > proposed > > rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair > > is >> > elected by just the Management Committee... it > > should be the whole >> > brigade, just as the Secretary > > and Treasurer positions are. >> > > > >> > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a > > group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the > > scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority > > expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they > > are >> > not successful... without this provision very > > little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the > > new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal > > performance is greatly undermined. >> > > > >> > Tony > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > > > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > of >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements > > of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated > > otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit > > www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Thu Nov 17 22:44:37 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Thu Nov 17 22:44:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- Kaiokoura siren complaints Message-ID: <040e01cca50d$858c3ce0$90a4b6a0$@co.nz> http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/kaikoura/5974052/Siren-dispu te-angers-chief From mike at firepumps.co.nz Fri Nov 18 07:47:49 2011 From: mike at firepumps.co.nz (Mike Harrison) Date: Fri Nov 18 07:48:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds Message-ID: http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds From ed at hintz.org Fri Nov 18 07:57:28 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Nov 18 07:57:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation In-Reply-To: <4ec4cb7a.6b.3de0.6239@clear.net.nz> References: <4ec4cb7a.6b.3de0.6239@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4EC55918.5090308@hintz.org> On 11/17/11 9:53 PM, skweek wrote: > Yes, I agree with Kerry. My observation thus far is that in general it seems the intent of the new rules is meeting with approval. It's the implementation that is mostly generating concern, along with the short notice/review time (which, had the drafts been circulated publicly earlier, would have given sufficient time for this process to do its thing and correct the perceived deficiencies). On the one hand I also find it notable that most responses here are stating that in their respective organizations it's already democratic. But then that makes sense when you think about it. Authoritarian regimes may take less kindly to the rank and file shouting out on the subject (indeed, I recall one such brigade which outright forbade members to participate, unsure if this issue has been resolved by a recent change of command). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Fri Nov 18 09:02:47 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:03:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation References: <1320966608.1917.13.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <1320985216.7627.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <575D362866174C209FFC7CE40E238B80@SN2938977271>, <4EC475B6.5060300@sutorius.org><1321508640.5069.28.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <2CA9CCB4745B40F197DFB77A16596CAA@ferritsamdx2> Message-ID: <2AFED963444F424CAF0AD9E33EEECF99@SN2938977271> Well said Kerry, the concerns of our Brigade are similar, too much, too unweildy and why required in this fashion now? ----- Original Message ----- From: kerry and heather To: VollyNet Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are >> > not successful... without this provision very little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. Tony, I think this depends entirely on the CFO. If he/she runs their brigade as a democratic unit as opposed to an autocratic unit, the brigade benefits. I know a couple of CFO's who do this. They concentrate on operational stuff and the management committee (made up of members as per the present rules) manages the social stuff. The CFO is still chair of the management committee, however he is only one vote there and one vote at a whole brigade meeting. I think as chair he is in a good position to protect the brigade and advise them if there may be any conflict of interest or, if the management committee is not doing things right. This appears to work bloody well in the brigades that it is being done. The troops have a voice (and use it), they can talk openly and get listened too. These CFO's do not run roughshod over the members. There may also brigades who are dictated to by the CFO who rule with and iron fist in his/her kingdom. This is wrong....The present rules allow for the management committee to run the social side. I personally would like to see education rather than regulation. Maybe the UFBA could offer some form of assistance to brigades who face this issue and help with the learning to manage the brigade as it is intended. I see the present rules as being ok, they are easy to follow, set some specific standards and are written simply. The new ones to me seem to try to force regulation of brigades, use about 100 words to say two things and set the standards much to high for people who are donating time to help. The new sec and treasurer list for example. (not sure we would get either position filled at an agm as these positions are filled by non members as such). I am not sure that the new rules will create a lot of harmony in brigades that suffer from possible over zealous CFO's I think that there would be more benefit in fine tuning the present rules to make things flow better and achieve the same results. Thoughts ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marks Family" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:44 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > The "authority" should be with the brigade membership. The authority to > elect the Chief as the chair of the Management Committee or an other > member. > > I think Tony has it right. > > Authority over operation activities will remain with the Chief or the > person appointed by the Chief if the Chief is not a member of the > brigade. They will have the responsibility to ensure the brigade is > ready to roll. > > > Being an "Urban Fire Brigade" is now only part of what we do. That is > after all what we are funded to do by the government and FSC and is the > box they want us to fit into. > > The government and the FSC give us the basic minimum they can get away > with while many brigades fund raise themselves for essential equipment. > > > > On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 15:56 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> maybe this concept needs to be expanded then to be specific in the areas >> in which each position has authority.. >> >> The point is not so much the two positions, but more the cross over of >> their authorities.. There still needs to be an ultimate. >> >> > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:47:18 +1300 >> > From: tony@sutorius.org >> > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Brigade Rules of Assocation >> > >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > On 12/11/11 11:27, Ian & Heather King wrote: >> > > And that is where i think you are wrong, " the chief does not run the >> > > brigade". I personally think he/she does, but the social side now >> > > referred to as 'the club' can be run by a committee but still must >> > > report to the Chief. Call me old fashioned or whatever but I cannot >> > > see two positions (Chief and Mgt Com Chair) running a Brigade without >> > > some sort of disruption or disharmony, and at the very least some >> > > 'side taking'? >> > > >> > >> > >> > While I agree there is some potential for disharmony, personally I >> > think >> > the separation is an important and useful one. >> > >> > Most importantly, while the chief is (and we can't avoid it >> > realistically) appointed by National Commander via the RM since they >> > wield such power under the Act, the Management Committee Chair is >> > elected and (critically) re-elected annually entirely within the >> > brigade. >> > >> > The change therefore represents a major movement of power back to the >> > democratic control of the brigade, and is therefore in my view an >> > excellent and commendable change. The preamble to the new model rules >> > heavily emphasises democracy; here is the strongest example of a >> > tangible change in that direction. >> > >> > Consider the practical advantages: you may have a excellent >> > professional >> > manager in your team with only a year's service, and a grizzled old >> > chief with great operational credentials but weaker administrative >> > and/or delegation skills, or an inability to spend enough time on >> > brigade work to keep everything turning over smoothly. Now you have a >> > great opportunity to make the best of your human resources in a whole >> > new way. >> > >> > In my view (and in the view of my brigade, who like the hippies we are >> > voted to agree our position on this issue) the weakness in the way the >> > proposed rules set this up is that the Management Committee Chair is >> > elected by just the Management Committee... it should be the whole >> > brigade, just as the Secretary and Treasurer positions are. >> > >> > I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to hear that a group of chiefs >> > appear to be working behind the scenes to have this threat to their >> > authority expunged from the proposed rules; I certainly hope they are >> > not successful... without this provision very little changes for >> > ordinary brigade members under the new rules, and our ability to >> > self-manage for optimal performance is greatly undermined. >> > >> > Tony >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Fri Nov 18 09:11:19 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:11:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds References: Message-ID: Mike I have heard of several cases in the UK where similar things have happened due to incident commander preoccupation with adhering to OSH policies for " fear of getting their butts kicked" . And it will probably only get worse after the OIC's of the first arriving appliances at the Warwickshire warehouse fire when 4 retained firefighters died, have been charged under similar legislation. I have also read of inexperienced officers who have been trained through the new style of training (less practical more paper - read TAPS) in UK, failing to aggressively attack fires even when safe to do so, but adopting defensive attack causing larger financial loss, because its " safer" for them and their crews under fear pf OSH prosecution. Just wonder how long before it starts here. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Harrison To: VollyNet Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Fri Nov 18 09:19:15 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:19:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned References: <03fc01cca4e7$b9ed0260$2dc70720$@co.nz> Message-ID: <101752A81CE74EA9815D97CBDD5BE9D5@SN2938977271> Very sad for a small brigade and community on the same day. RIP guys ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen To: nzfire@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'VollyNet' Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:13 PM Subject: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.times-age.co.nz/news/firefighters-mourned/1176750/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 09:51:28 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Fri Nov 18 09:51:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: It has happened here, but the DOL didnt pursue the charges. The beauty of the Fire Service becoming the 'Jack of all', especially when they dont get paid for that. Need to ensure the training exists for it. Maybe a fine would be grounds for more money, to allow for the training and equipment, rather than 'getting by'.. > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: mike@firepumps.co.nz; vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:11:19 +1300 > CC: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Mike > I have heard of several cases in the UK where similar things have happened due to incident commander preoccupation with adhering to OSH policies for " fear of getting their butts kicked" . And it will probably only get worse after the OIC's of the first arriving appliances at the Warwickshire warehouse fire when 4 retained firefighters died, have been charged under similar legislation. I have also read of inexperienced officers who have been trained through the new style of training (less practical more paper - read TAPS) in UK, failing to aggressively attack fires even when safe to do so, but adopting defensive attack causing larger financial loss, because its " safer" for them and their crews under fear pf OSH prosecution. Just wonder how long before it starts here. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Harrison > To: VollyNet > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 7:47 AM > Subject: [VollyNet] http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.shponline.co.uk/news-content/full/fire-chiefs-delayed-mine-shaft-rescue-on-safety-grounds > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz Fri Nov 18 10:02:03 2011 From: simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz (Simon Quirke) Date: Fri Nov 18 10:02:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wellingtonian of the Year Message-ID: In a piece of good press for the NZFS, Wellingtonian of the Year award in the Government Sector category went to Jim Stuart-Black, who "ran the recent search and rescue ops in Christchurch". From matt at p00le.net Fri Nov 18 10:13:06 2011 From: matt at p00le.net (Matthew Poole) Date: Fri Nov 18 10:13:21 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] BREAKING NEWS: Multiple K41 at Sydney nursing home Message-ID: <298eef961a6aa58fd3f053bde5ed2621.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10766940 Exact toll unknown, but estimated as "less than 10". -- Matthew Poole "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer." From ed at hintz.org Fri Nov 18 14:16:52 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Fri Nov 18 14:17:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] This would give H&S officers nightmares... Message-ID: <4EC5B204.4080909@hintz.org> http://www.vertikal.net/en/news/story/13244/ -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz Fri Nov 18 16:14:02 2011 From: kiwis1 at slingshot.co.nz (Stephen) Date: Fri Nov 18 16:14:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wellingtonian of the Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048801cca5a0$1f77b130$5e671390$@co.nz> Excellent and from all accounts he deserves it too. Well done Jim Stephen -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Simon Quirke Sent: Friday, 18 November 2011 10:02 a.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: [VollyNet] Wellingtonian of the Year VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- In a piece of good press for the NZFS, Wellingtonian of the Year award in the Government Sector category went to Jim Stuart-Black, who "ran the recent search and rescue ops in Christchurch". ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz Sun Nov 20 21:36:50 2011 From: Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz (Paul Butler) Date: Sun Nov 20 21:37:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned In-Reply-To: <101752A81CE74EA9815D97CBDD5BE9D5@SN2938977271> References: <03fc01cca4e7$b9ed0260$2dc70720$@co.nz> <101752A81CE74EA9815D97CBDD5BE9D5@SN2938977271> Message-ID: We gave the pair of them a great send off. Cheers guys. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian & Heather King Sent: Friday, 18 November 2011 9:19 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Very sad for a small brigade and community on the same day. RIP guys ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen To: nzfire@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'VollyNet' Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:13 PM Subject: [VollyNet] News:- firefighters mourned VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.times-age.co.nz/news/firefighters-mourned/1176750/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! 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