From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Mon Oct 31 16:36:37 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Mon Oct 31 16:36:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain> References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org> <8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2> <28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain> Message-ID: <1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the document. ________________________________ From: Nigel Lilley To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and? our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and? if? it can't be resolved? it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister.? The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ? ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 31 18:10:07 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 31 18:18:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Proposed Model Rules with comments by Geoff Marks In-Reply-To: <001f01cc95e9$7044afd0$50ce0f70$@xtra.co.nz> References: <1319856782.1731.10.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <001f01cc95e9$7044afd0$50ce0f70$@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: Hi Greg, We've been doing a *much* better job of playing the ball rather than the man around here lately... T. On 29/10/2011, at 16:18, "GW" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > First and foremostly while you continue to add your comments on here, you definitely seem to have a thing about the NZFS & UFBA on your mind. Instead of ranting here, have you ever been to a Canterbury Provincial or Mid cant sub Assn meeting as well as a UFBA Meeting and aired your views ? > > Regarding the model Rules ... I think you will find that the then area manager Brian Joyce had every brigade sign and adopt these rules. There was a deadline set and all CFO's were notified even your ex CFO Pike. The same went for Bar Rules. > > Your problem seems to be the way or way not your Brigade is responded to Medical Calls. I believe until such time as the National body current legislation is amended to read ' New Zealand Fire & Rescue Service' the option for these services may only occur in some districts. > > Personally I think > 1.The bashing of the UFBA is unfair and perhaps you should look under some ex members bed or wardrobes to find the material you seem to be missing to help you fill in the blanks . > 2. Grow some plums and stand up in person at your UFBA, CPFBA or Sub branch meetings and plead your case. > > > > My views only > > > Greg W > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 15:53 > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Proposed Model Rules with comments by Geoff Marks > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Cometary: (sp) COMMENTARY > > sorry - in this format the this is not the easiest reading any one who > wants a copy in Word or Open Office format let me know - Geoff > > IN OTHER WORDS THE UFBA HAVE SOLD US DOWN THE RIVER!!!! > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 31 18:38:46 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 31 18:38:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Sorry about those old posts... found 'me in the bit bucket! Message-ID: <1CB2371D-A736-4662-9C6F-335441A8C206@sutorius.org> From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 31 18:35:09 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 31 18:39:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Fwd: Regional Reduction & Realignment - final decision document References: <4EAE3264.9030000@unreal.co.nz> Message-ID: > Hi all, > > Because of the great interest in this matter I attach the document in full for anyone having difficulty obtaining it. > > Tony > From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 31 18:47:16 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 31 18:50:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Fwd: Regional Reduction & Realignment - final decision document References: <4EAE3264.9030000@unreal.co.nz> Message-ID: <83604AAA-7F54-488B-B4A8-71A7D916816D@sutorius.org> > Hi all, > > Because of the great interest in this matter I attach the document in full for anyone having difficulty obtaining it. > > Tony > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Regional_Reduction_and_Realignment-Final_Decision_Document.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1397311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://vollynet.org.nz/mailman/public/vollynet/attachments/20111031/291c9fcc/Regional_Reduction_and_Realignment-Final_Decision_Document-0001.pdf From nigel at ihug.co.nz Mon Oct 31 19:19:23 2011 From: nigel at ihug.co.nz (Nigel Lilley) Date: Mon Oct 31 19:20:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org><8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2><28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain> <1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8F116FBFA20F4EFC8A06DA3BD7C34FBD@nigelmain> Only part of it. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 4:37 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the document. ________________________________ From: Nigel Lilley To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and? our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and? if? it can't be resolved? it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister.? The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ? ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3984 - Release Date: 10/30/11 From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Mon Oct 31 19:45:32 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Mon Oct 31 19:45:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Proposed Model Rules with comments by Geoff Marks In-Reply-To: <001f01cc95e9$7044afd0$50ce0f70$@xtra.co.nz> References: <1319856782.1731.10.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <001f01cc95e9$7044afd0$50ce0f70$@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <1320043532.1915.9.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Both the Rules of Association and the Agreement of Service are extremely important documents along with the UFBA rules and regulations and the Fire Service Act for any brigade. Some one in each brigade should have a good understanding of them. This person should be the secretary (maybe I should not have volunteered for the job). One important point I would like to make is that any new Rules of Association must be passed by a Brigade at the Annual General Meeting or at a Special Meeting called for that propose. They cannot be foisted on us by the UFBA (If I am wrong let me know). As with the Agreement of Service this must go to a brigade meeting to be ratified and cannot be signed off by the CFO. I as suggested in the post below "that the then area manager Brian Joyce had every brigade sign and adopt these rules. There was a deadline set and all CFO's were notified". If a CFO signed off on the a rule change without going through the proper procedure they would be null and void. Two points I would make 1) The FSC have not record of any brigade in the former Transalpine or Southern Regions having agreed to the present Agreement of Service 2) there are no recorded minutes in our brigade that ratified them. On Sat, 2011-10-29 at 16:18 +1300, GW wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > First and foremostly while you continue to add your comments on here, you definitely seem to have a thing about the NZFS & UFBA on your mind. Instead of ranting here, have you ever been to a Canterbury Provincial or Mid cant sub Assn meeting as well as a UFBA Meeting and aired your views ? > > Regarding the model Rules ... I think you will find that the then area manager Brian Joyce had every brigade sign and adopt these rules. There was a deadline set and all CFO's were notified even your ex CFO Pike. The same went for Bar Rules. > > Your problem seems to be the way or way not your Brigade is responded to Medical Calls. I believe until such time as the National body current legislation is amended to read ' New Zealand Fire & Rescue Service' the option for these services may only occur in some districts. > > Personally I think > 1.The bashing of the UFBA is unfair and perhaps you should look under some ex members bed or wardrobes to find the material you seem to be missing to help you fill in the blanks . > 2. Grow some plums and stand up in person at your UFBA, CPFBA or Sub branch meetings and plead your case. > > > > My views only > > > Greg W > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 15:53 > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Proposed Model Rules with comments by Geoff Marks > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Cometary: (sp) COMMENTARY > > sorry - in this format the this is not the easiest reading any one who > wants a copy in Word or Open Office format let me know - Geoff > > IN OTHER WORDS THE UFBA HAVE SOLD US DOWN THE RIVER!!!! > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Tue Nov 1 09:12:41 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Tue Nov 1 09:13:14 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Essex Fire Service to no longer respond to AutomaticFire Alarms References: <4D623AF6.2090902@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271> Interesting that they make the rules and force buidling owners to put these systems in, then refuse to respond to them....double dipping? ----- Original Message ----- From: Derek Quinn To: undisclosed-recipients: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 11:14 PM Subject: [VollyNet] Essex Fire Service to no longer respond to AutomaticFire Alarms VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.assured-ltd.co.uk/articles/essex-fire-service-no-longer-responding-to-automatic-fire-alarms/1431/ Essex fire service no longer responding to automatic fire alarms February 21, 2011 Posted in Fire News ? Written by Francis Essex County Fire and Rescue Service (ECFRS) has announced that it will stop responding to false automatic fire alarm calls at local businesses, in order to keep fire crews available for real emergencies. The fire service has said that 97 per cent of all automatic fire alarm callouts in the area have been false, causing firefighters to waste time and resources attending each incident. This is why ECFRS has taken the bold step of saying that response to certain types of calls will be limited, starting from the end of February. The calls that will be ignored include those from automatic fire alarms in factories or offices, as well as those from phone boxes where 999 is dialled but the caller hangs up. ECFRS fire officers have said that tax payers should not be funding fire service response to these false callouts, which often occur because businesses fail in their fire alarm maintenance duties. Chief fire officer David Johnson said: ?I am sure that home owners and businesses would rather our fire crews and appliances are ready to respond to their real emergencies, rather than them not being available because they are sitting outside factories or offices dealing with yet another of the thousands of false alarms that the service gets on a yearly basis.? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 1 10:38:33 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Tue Nov 1 10:38:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa In-Reply-To: <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271> References: <4D623AF6.2090902@clear.net.nz>, <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Anyone happen to know statistics of areas and their resourcing? My question is what is the population and geographic spread in the Wairarapa and what are their resources.. It seems every station there has two trucks and the distance between all the main towns is 30 minutes max.... Is this area on par or does it seem quite well resourced.. From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Tue Nov 1 11:39:33 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Tue Nov 1 11:40:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa References: <4D623AF6.2090902@clear.net.nz>, <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Very well resourced especially when you look at Carterton, 3 appliances 7 kms from a paid stn in Masterton with 5 appliances - okay there is a river in the middle. Then run Greytowns PRT to every MVA despite all the other stations having substantial sets of extrication gear of their own? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone happen to know statistics of areas and their resourcing? My question is what is the population and geographic spread in the Wairarapa and what are their resources.. It seems every station there has two trucks and the distance between all the main towns is 30 minutes max.... Is this area on par or does it seem quite well resourced.. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 1 11:58:04 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Tue Nov 1 11:58:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa In-Reply-To: References: <4D623AF6.2090902@clear.net.nz>, , <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271>, , Message-ID: Masterton x5Carterton x2 +tankerFeatherston x2Martinborough x2Greytown x2 (which seems strange, is this second one actually sactioned by NZFS or just one that has successfully been held onto?) The greatest travelling distance from one end to the other is 30 minutes.. Masterton to Greytown (Carterton in the middle) is only 20 min (in fact the longest driving time seem to be actually IN town.. those are very long main streets...) a bit further out is Paihiatua and Eketahuna.. > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Wairarapa > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:39:33 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Very well resourced especially when you look at Carterton, 3 appliances 7 kms from a paid stn in Masterton with 5 appliances - okay there is a river in the middle. Then run Greytowns PRT to every MVA despite all the other stations having substantial sets of extrication gear of their own? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:38 AM > Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone happen to know statistics of areas and their resourcing? > My question is what is the population and geographic spread in the Wairarapa and what are their resources.. It seems every station there has two trucks and the distance between all the main towns is 30 minutes max.... > Is this area on par or does it seem quite well resourced.. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Tue Nov 1 12:18:03 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Tue Nov 1 12:18:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa References: <4D623AF6.2090902@clear.net.nz>, , <0DC847A21B0743449EFC86401224CD03@SN2938977271>, , Message-ID: <70302DABDCED445CAE343D360330C901@SN2938977271> Yeah originally Greytown was a single pump station. Only does about 80 calls a year in total. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 11:58 AM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Wairarapa VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Masterton x5Carterton x2 +tankerFeatherston x2Martinborough x2Greytown x2 (which seems strange, is this second one actually sactioned by NZFS or just one that has successfully been held onto?) The greatest travelling distance from one end to the other is 30 minutes.. Masterton to Greytown (Carterton in the middle) is only 20 min (in fact the longest driving time seem to be actually IN town.. those are very long main streets...) a bit further out is Paihiatua and Eketahuna.. > From: 4kings@nettel.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Wairarapa > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:39:33 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Very well resourced especially when you look at Carterton, 3 appliances 7 kms from a paid stn in Masterton with 5 appliances - okay there is a river in the middle. Then run Greytowns PRT to every MVA despite all the other stations having substantial sets of extrication gear of their own? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:38 AM > Subject: [VollyNet] Wairarapa > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone happen to know statistics of areas and their resourcing? > My question is what is the population and geographic spread in the Wairarapa and what are their resources.. It seems every station there has two trucks and the distance between all the main towns is 30 minutes max.... > Is this area on par or does it seem quite well resourced.. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From k.and.h at xtra.co.nz Tue Nov 1 17:58:28 2011 From: k.and.h at xtra.co.nz (kerry and heather) Date: Tue Nov 1 17:58:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org><8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2><28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain><1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8F116FBFA20F4EFC8A06DA3BD7C34FBD@nigelmain> Message-ID: <1F132018185C46C1BEBF4868A503E708@ferritsamdx2> Not Assumption Nigel. Had heard from the two affected persons and only passed comment that other positions were on the line....no assumption there,,.. As it worked out the other positions that were on the line were retained after submissions. So that bloody good. Cheers K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Lilley" To: "'Allan Hoult'" ; "'VollyNet'" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:19 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Only part of it. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 4:37 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the document. ________________________________ From: Nigel Lilley To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3984 - Release Date: 10/30/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From nigel at ihug.co.nz Tue Nov 1 19:31:06 2011 From: nigel at ihug.co.nz (Nigel Lilley) Date: Tue Nov 1 19:31:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <1F132018185C46C1BEBF4868A503E708@ferritsamdx2> References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org><8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2><28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain><1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><8F116FBFA20F4EFC8A06DA3BD7C34FBD@nigelmain> <1F132018185C46C1BEBF4868A503E708@ferritsamdx2> Message-ID: <2AB7EB02876E421EA3B8398C85065357@nigelmain> That's what I meant my friend, it is pleasing to see they listened -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 5:58 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Not Assumption Nigel. Had heard from the two affected persons and only passed comment that other positions were on the line....no assumption there,,.. As it worked out the other positions that were on the line were retained after submissions. So that bloody good. Cheers K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Lilley" To: "'Allan Hoult'" ; "'VollyNet'" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:19 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Only part of it. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 4:37 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the document. ________________________________ From: Nigel Lilley To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3984 - Release Date: 10/30/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3988 - Release Date: 10/31/11 From mike at firepumps.co.nz Wed Nov 2 07:43:08 2011 From: mike at firepumps.co.nz (Mike Harrison) Date: Wed Nov 2 07:43:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <2AB7EB02876E421EA3B8398C85065357@nigelmain> References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org><8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2><28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain><1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><8F116FBFA20F4EFC8A06DA3BD7C34FBD@nigelmain><1F132018185C46C1BEBF4868A503E708@ferritsamdx2> <2AB7EB02876E421EA3B8398C85065357@nigelmain> Message-ID: After reading fully the final decision document I must say it is a clear plan for the future of a National Fire Service. It is good to see that submissions from the UFBA and others were listened to and implemented. I know a lot of work went into the submission from the UFBA so they do deserve a thumbs up. Also a thumbs up to the NZFS for listening. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Nigel Lilley Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:31 PM To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- That's what I meant my friend, it is pleasing to see they listened -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 5:58 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Not Assumption Nigel. Had heard from the two affected persons and only passed comment that other positions were on the line....no assumption there,,.. As it worked out the other positions that were on the line were retained after submissions. So that bloody good. Cheers K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Lilley" To: "'Allan Hoult'" ; "'VollyNet'" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:19 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Only part of it. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 4:37 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the document. ________________________________ From: Nigel Lilley To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3984 - Release Date: 10/30/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3988 - Release Date: 10/31/11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From graeme.booth at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 08:53:50 2011 From: graeme.booth at gmail.com (Graeme Booth) Date: Wed Nov 2 08:54:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Rescue tender designations Message-ID: I've suggested in the latest UFBA newsletter that there be an additional designation for rescue tenders. It involves reviving the 9 designation which used to be reserved for light rescue tenders, usually based on vans and small appliances like Jeeps and Ultralights. There are very few of these appliances left in the country so I'm suggesting that the designation be moved to pumping appliances carrying a basic kit of rescue equipment such as a combi tool, stablisation gear, glass control etc. When an road crash with entrapment occurs the local brigade would be responded along with the nearest 7 designated rescue tender, as happens now. But if an appliance with a 9 designation was closer the it would be sent too with the object of carrying out at least initial rescue functions, such as stabilisng and popping a door, prior to the arrival of the 7 designated unit. The idea is open for discussion and I would be very happy to see your views expressed on the UFBA site, or on this forum. I suggest you read the full article in the UFBA newsletter first. Graeme Booth From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 10:26:45 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (4kings@nettel.net.nz) Date: Wed Nov 2 10:26:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org><8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2><28F5E764DC9246559499D78D026829A8@nigelmain><1320032197.41956.YahooMailNeo@web112501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><8F116FBFA20F4EFC8A06DA3BD7C34FBD@nigelmain><1F132018185C46C1BEBF4868A503E708@ferritsamdx2> <2AB7EB02876E421EA3B8398C85065357@nigelmain> Message-ID: <20111101212732.69F8E8C615@smtp-out1.slb.compass.net.nz> Couldn't agree more Mike, a pleasant surprise. And even the VSO's who kept their jobs should be happy, they getting a pay rise too without asking!! n Wed, November 2, 2011 7:43 am, Mike Harrison wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > After reading fully the final decision document I must say it is a clear > plan for the future of a National Fire Service. It is good to see that > submissions from the UFBA and others were listened to and implemented. I > know a lot of work went into the submission from the UFBA so they do > deserve a thumbs up. Also a thumbs up to the NZFS for listening. > > Regards > > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nigel Lilley > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 7:31 PM > To: 'VollyNet' > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > That's what I meant my friend, it is pleasing to see they listened > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 5:58 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Not Assumption Nigel. > > > Had heard from the two affected persons and only passed comment that > other positions were on the line....no assumption there,,.. > > As it worked out the other positions that were on the line were retained > after submissions. So that bloody good. > > Cheers > K > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nigel Lilley" > To: "'Allan Hoult'" ; "'VollyNet'" > > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:19 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Only part of it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Allan Hoult > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 4:37 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > It wasn't assumption Nigel, it was fact. As has been confirmed in the > document. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Nigel Lilley > To: 'VollyNet' > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 5:11 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Kerry - wait til you see the final document before assuming........... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of kerry and heather > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 11:02 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from > a > > volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the > line. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tristan Saunders" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region > had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). > > > Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> From: tony@sutorius.org >> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi all, >> >> >> Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're >> painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other >> brigades can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option >> exists. >> >> I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are >> considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm >> up. > >> I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, >> potentially all at once:- >> >> 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the >> election >> >> 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has >> outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations >> associated > >> with the Service >> >> 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently >> doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) >> >> I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at >> least one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling >> this trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they >> expect they > >> will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in >> another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their >> outcome. >> >> One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be >> substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make >> that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. >> >> Tony >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: >> >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi everyone >>> I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to >>> volunteer support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number >>> of brigades will result is some serious soul searching by those making >>> such decisions. Our >>> brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our >>> DVSA >>> position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the >>> impending cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. >>> >>> 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut >>> backs. 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, >>> that the brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise >>> the commission that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the >>> grounds of extra work load etc etc etc 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire >>> Service Act 1975 >>> >>> >>> In the event of any dispute arising between- >>> (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; >>> and (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members >>> of any volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written >>> notice of the circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire >>> Brigades' Association of >>> > >>> New >>> Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling >>> of the dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, >>> made by that Association in the matter within a reasonable time: >>> provided that, in any case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a >>> dispute cannot be reached, either party may refer the matter for >>> consideration by the Minister, whose decision shall be final. >>> (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) >>> >>> >>> By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable >>> conclusion, the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved >>> it will go right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to >>> adopt this action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions >>> and imagine the stock pile of paperwork that would be created. >>> >>> Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process >>> about 10 >>> years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my >>> knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually >>> resolved and was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by >>> the Ministers >>> suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took >>> about > >>> 2 >>> years. >>> >>> By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious >>> thought, I believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to >>> contact me if you have any questions >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> >>> Tony Swain >>> 0274 468495 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. >>> To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Adam, >>> >>> >>> I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no >>> power... in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid >>> staff, as their cross-party political credibility, community support, >>> local mana and practical unreplaceability are immutable. >>> >>> The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known >>> how) to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of >>> putting > >>> it, I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps >>> have been a little complacent in thinking these issues are not their >>> individual problem and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". >>> >>> The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably >>> without achieving much political traction on the national stage in >>> recent times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in >>> their strategy. >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Tony, >>>> >>>> >>>> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades >>>> haven't >>> said >>>> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and >>>> why >>> they >>>> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. >>>> >>>> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The >>>> collective >>> power >>>> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid >>>> Firefighter, >>>> and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year >>>> battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that >>>> stood out was solidarity. >>>> >>>> Thanks and regards >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >>>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>>> >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Adam, >>>> >>>> >>>> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. >>>> An >>>> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry >>>> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades >>>> operating >>> in >>>> loose concert would be formidable. >>>> >>>> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see >>>> little risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire >>>> brigade? >>>> >>>> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but >>>> I >>>> see >>> no >>>> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. >>>> Brigades >>>> can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. >>>> >>>> T. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" >>>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >>>>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >>>>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and >>>>> respond with any action. One thing is for sure, it needs to be a >>>>> collective not individual as then you will be picked off one by >>>>> one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and regards >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike >>>>> Harrison >>>>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >>>>> To: VollyNet >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs >>>>> go it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the >>>>> receiving end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >>>>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good >>>>> Regards >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Tristan Saunders >>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >>>>> To: VollyNet >>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating >>>>> their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If >>>>> they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>>>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>>> For >>>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> - >>>>>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund >>>>>> Hintz >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>>>>> To: VollyNet >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>>> For >>>>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> - >>>>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>>>>> they're wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them >>>>>> they're right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** >>>>>> eh dontcha know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the >>>>>> liberal govs pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises >>>>>> before they cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of >>>>>> those with big money. And every once in a while they can >>>>>> surprise you and do something >>>>> halfway sane. >>>>>> >>>>>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>>>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the >>>>>> National >>>>>> >>>> morons. >>>>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell >>>>>> hurt to not try). >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed Hintz >>>>>> ed@hintz.org >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> - >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *************************************************************** >>>>>> ****** >>>>>> * >>>>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>>>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>>>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and >>>>>> delete this message from your system. >>>>>> >>>>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the >>>>>> Reserve >>>>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>>>>> content of this message they should seek alternative >>>>>> confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>>>>> *************************************************************** >>>>>> ****** >>>>>> * >>>>>> ******** >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3980 - Release Date: 10/28/11 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3984 - Release Date: 10/30/11 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3988 - Release Date: 10/31/11 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From MRStewart at dow.com Wed Nov 2 10:49:03 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Wed Nov 2 10:49:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South Message-ID: Hi All so who is heading south at the end of the month. Mark the Lurker From sayerfamilynz at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 11:39:17 2011 From: sayerfamilynz at gmail.com (sayerfamilynz@gmail.com) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:39:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> You start - you haven't said you are (or not). Ok - I'll be there Daryl Sayer Sumner -----Original Message----- From: Stewart, Mark (MR) Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 10:49 AM To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi All so who is heading south at the end of the month. Mark the Lurker ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From MRStewart at dow.com Wed Nov 2 11:53:53 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Wed Nov 2 11:54:30 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> Message-ID: That 2 of us for a beer then Mark the Lurker ?????? NOTICE: This e-mail message (including all attachments) from Dow AgroSciences is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any attachments. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of sayerfamilynz@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 11:39 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- You start - you haven't said you are (or not). Ok - I'll be there Daryl Sayer Sumner -----Original Message----- From: Stewart, Mark (MR) Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 10:49 AM To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi All so who is heading south at the end of the month. Mark the Lurker ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 12:04:27 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:04:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> Message-ID: <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > That 2 of us for a beer then 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all pissups. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tds_4 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:20:44 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:21:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC>, , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: Me > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 12:31:42 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:32:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC>, , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> Numbers adding up, soon it'll be too expensive to 'get a round in'? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Me > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 12:33:11 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:35:12 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC>, , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: 5 pumps and the Scope to the ' Calendar Girls' bar last night, nothing showing, yeah right!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Me > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From MRStewart at dow.com Wed Nov 2 12:54:15 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Wed Nov 2 12:54:43 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC>, , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Ian If it's like the last couple of years there will only be a couple of us solving the world's problems. ?????? Mark the lurker -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian & Heather King Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 12:32 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Numbers adding up, soon it'll be too expensive to 'get a round in'? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Me > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 2 14:31:52 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:32:14 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> , , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> Message-ID: <1320197512.2689.1.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I will be there to have a good rant! Geoff Sorry to hear your not coming Ed. On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 07:54 +0800, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ian > If it's like the last couple of years there will only be a couple of us solving the world's problems. > > > Mark the lurker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian & Heather King > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 12:32 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Numbers adding up, soon it'll be too expensive to 'get a round in'? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Me > > > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > > From: ed@hintz.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > > pissups. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 14:35:52 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:36:05 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: <1320197512.2689.1.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> , , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> <1320197512.2689.1.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <4EB09E78.3020907@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 2:31 PM, Marks Family wrote: > Sorry to hear your not coming Ed. Heh, gotta give the young 'uns a shot too. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tony at sutorius.org Wed Nov 2 14:44:40 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:44:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 References: Message-ID: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> > Hi all, > > I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the date? > > Cheers! > > T. From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Nov 2 14:48:00 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:48:19 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 In-Reply-To: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> References: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> Message-ID: http://www.fireup.co.nz/ 13 Nov Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a > training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the > date? > > > > Cheers! > > > > T. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Nov 2 14:48:22 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:48:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> Message-ID: shit - that man is a turkey hold that thought Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Ben Kepes wrote: > http://www.fireup.co.nz/ > > 13 Nov > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a >> training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the >> date? >> > >> > Cheers! >> > >> > T. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > > From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Nov 2 14:48:46 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Nov 2 14:48:59 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> Message-ID: This event is normally held the third Saturday of May and is currently a Charity event for the Leukaemia and Blood Foundation. Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Ben Kepes wrote: > shit - that man is a turkey > > hold that thought > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> http://www.fireup.co.nz/ >> >> 13 Nov >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >> web www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a >>> training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the >>> date? >>> > >>> > Cheers! >>> > >>> > T. >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> >> > From simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz Wed Nov 2 15:21:00 2011 From: simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz (Simon Quirke) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:21:11 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: "Elected SO" "at the AGM" I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station officers positions. Simon On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 15:27:23 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:27:33 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EB0AA8B.7040004@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 3:21 PM, Simon Quirke wrote: > "Elected SO" "at the AGM" > > I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station > officers positions. > Heh. I'm curious about the question. I thought all of them did, this would seem to imply that's not the case. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tony at sutorius.org Wed Nov 2 15:37:43 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:37:46 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0AA8B.7040004@hintz.org> References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4EB0AA8B.7040004@hintz.org> Message-ID: Hi Simon, At Plimmerton we always have. I think it's a very, very positive thing; every officer starts out knowing for sure that they have the confidence of their crews and other officers. It may be worth noting that our officers are not JUST elected... to be nominated they must first be fully qualified, a vacancy must exist, and the CFO will interview them and must be confident in their competence. T. On 2/11/2011, at 15:27, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 3:21 PM, Simon Quirke wrote: > >> "Elected SO" "at the AGM" >> >> I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station >> officers positions. >> > > Heh. I'm curious about the question. I thought all of them did, this > would seem to imply that's not the case. :) > > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz Wed Nov 2 15:38:41 2011 From: simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz (Simon Quirke) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:38:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0AA8B.7040004@hintz.org> References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4EB0AA8B.7040004@hintz.org> Message-ID: <01f12184baf7da0f888faa76358db9c3@vodafone.co.nz> We'll have to wait to see what feedback is received to know which way is more common. Watch this space. On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:27:23 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 3:21 PM, Simon Quirke wrote: > >> "Elected SO" "at the AGM" >> >> I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station >> officers positions. >> > > Heh. I'm curious about the question. I thought all of them did, this > would seem to imply that's not the case. :) From tony at sutorius.org Wed Nov 2 15:40:02 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:40:07 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Thanks Ben. T. On 2/11/2011, at 14:48, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This event is normally held the third Saturday of May and is currently a > Charity event for the Leukaemia and Blood Foundation. > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> shit - that man is a turkey >> >> hold that thought >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >> web www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:48 PM, Ben Kepes wrote: >> >>> http://www.fireup.co.nz/ >>> >>> 13 Nov >>> >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >>> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >>> web www.diversity.net.nz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a >>>> training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the >>>> date? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers! >>>>> >>>>> T. >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>> >>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From E.Speck at irl.cri.nz Wed Nov 2 15:41:02 2011 From: E.Speck at irl.cri.nz (Erich Speck) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:41:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> I served for 47 years, 15 of them as CFO for the Wainuiomata Vol Brigade. The appointment of all the officers position for all this years was always the responsibility of the executive officers CFO and DCFO. After all it is not a popularity contest or who shouts the most beer. Erich Speck -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Simon Quirke Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:21 pm To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Elected SO" "at the AGM" I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station officers positions. Simon On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and > all pissups. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. From tony at sutorius.org Wed Nov 2 15:51:25 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Nov 2 15:51:30 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Message-ID: <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> Hi Erich, I've heard this "who shouts the most beer" line for years but never really understood it... surely no-one seriously believes that their fellow brigade members are so foolish as to place their lives in the hands of someone on this basis? And if they really are that silly, aren't you just replacing that sorry prospect with the (admittedly much cheaper) "whoever buys the executive officers the most beers"? Wait a minute... T. On 2/11/2011, at 15:41, Erich Speck wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I served for 47 years, 15 of them as CFO for the Wainuiomata Vol Brigade. The appointment of all the officers position for all this years was always the responsibility of the executive officers CFO and DCFO. After all it is not a popularity contest or who shouts the most beer. > > Erich Speck > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Simon Quirke > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:21 pm > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Elections > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "Elected SO" "at the AGM" > > I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station officers positions. > > Simon > > > On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> >> 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was >> enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF >> Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and >> all pissups. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From E.Speck at irl.cri.nz Wed Nov 2 16:01:23 2011 From: E.Speck at irl.cri.nz (Erich Speck) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:01:33 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Hi Toni It is not easy to win an issue with you, I suppose which ever way it is done as long the best qualified person for the job is considered and not the most popular person. Regards, Erich -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:51 pm To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Erich, I've heard this "who shouts the most beer" line for years but never really understood it... surely no-one seriously believes that their fellow brigade members are so foolish as to place their lives in the hands of someone on this basis? And if they really are that silly, aren't you just replacing that sorry prospect with the (admittedly much cheaper) "whoever buys the executive officers the most beers"? Wait a minute... T. On 2/11/2011, at 15:41, Erich Speck wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I served for 47 years, 15 of them as CFO for the Wainuiomata Vol > Brigade. The appointment of all the officers position for all this > years was always the responsibility of the executive officers CFO and > DCFO. After all it is not a popularity contest or who shouts the most > beer. > > Erich Speck > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Simon Quirke > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:21 pm > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] Elections > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "Elected SO" "at the AGM" > > I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station > officers positions. > > Simon > > > On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> >> 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was >> enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF >> Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and >> all pissups. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this > electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 16:05:27 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:05:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 3:51 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > I've heard this "who shouts the most beer" line for years but never really understood it... surely no-one seriously believes that their fellow brigade members are so foolish as to place their lives in the hands of someone on this basis? I certainly haven't seen any situations in my last 8 yrs or so in which an officer (SO/DCFO/CFO) was elected based on popularity alone, and did not have sufficient experience or skills to undertake the position. Frankly, I'd posit that if the hoi polli are really that stupid, the brigade needs better hoi polli. The father-knows-best officer isn't always going to be there to babysit the FFs, and if they're prone to making such foolish and dangerous decisions when on their own there's a whole heap of trouble just waiting to explode. I don't care how much beer a dumbass buys, s/he's still a dumbass, and won't be getting my vote for leadership. And when discussion ensues about the person I'll be sure to make my position well known. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 16:08:50 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:08:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Message-ID: <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 4:01 PM, Erich Speck wrote: > It is not easy to win an issue with you, I suppose which ever way it is done as long the best qualified person for the job is considered and not the most popular person. And who better to judge qualification than those who work both beside and under the candidate(s) all the time? I daresay that if a SO prospect in our brigade got a negative mark from the existing officer corps it would largely influence the decision of the grunts, far more than a lousy bottle of beer would. So it's not as if the brass don't get a say; their say is in fact very heavily weighted in discussion, by virtue of their mana (to use a NZ term). Seems to work pretty damn well for us, anyway. Don't see why it wouldn't work for everybody else, given a good corps of grunts. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tds_4 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:19:11 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:19:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> Message-ID: Any issues arise between the successfull and the unsuccessful? > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:08:50 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 4:01 PM, Erich Speck wrote: > > > It is not easy to win an issue with you, I suppose which ever way it is done as long the best qualified person for the job is considered and not the most popular person. > > And who better to judge qualification than those who work both beside > and under the candidate(s) all the time? > > I daresay that if a SO prospect in our brigade got a negative mark from > the existing officer corps it would largely influence the decision of > the grunts, far more than a lousy bottle of beer would. So it's not as > if the brass don't get a say; their say is in fact very heavily weighted > in discussion, by virtue of their mana (to use a NZ term). > > Seems to work pretty damn well for us, anyway. Don't see why it wouldn't > work for everybody else, given a good corps of grunts. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 16:44:56 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:45:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EB0BCB8.8060505@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 4:19 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > Any issues arise between the successfull and the unsuccessful? Yeah, I'd have to say I've seen that. I'd certainly say that personalities played a part, but that I was unconvinced by arguments that personalities were the entire reasoning for the decisions which were challenged. Given 2 or more relatively equally competent options, naturally personal preference will come in to play. The question is, whose personal preference? The brass only, or the entire crew? I'll take the entire crew any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. I may not always agree with the decision, but I will respect it. It ain't just about me. Probably comes as no surprise that on the leadership scale in the officer course material I came down quite strongly on the subordinate-centered/knowledge-power side. It's also the mgmt style I employ in my day job with my underlings. I'm all in favor of giving them all the rope they need to hang themselves, relying on their good judgement and training to not do so. I don't want to be a babysitter, and if my monkeys can't handle autonomy then it's time for better training or new monkeys. Quis custodiet ipsos custodies? Optimus non custodies. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Nov 2 16:50:04 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Nov 2 16:50:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0BCB8.8060505@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> <4EB0BCB8.8060505@hintz.org> Message-ID: I love it when you talk dirty Latin Ed Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Nov 2, 2011 4:45 PM, "Edmund Hintz" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 4:19 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > Any issues arise between the successfull and the unsuccessful? > > Yeah, I'd have to say I've seen that. I'd certainly say that > personalities played a part, but that I was unconvinced by arguments > that personalities were the entire reasoning for the decisions which > were challenged. > > Given 2 or more relatively equally competent options, naturally personal > preference will come in to play. The question is, whose personal > preference? The brass only, or the entire crew? I'll take the entire > crew any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. I may not always agree > with the decision, but I will respect it. It ain't just about me. > > Probably comes as no surprise that on the leadership scale in the > officer course material I came down quite strongly on the > subordinate-centered/knowledge-power side. It's also the mgmt style I > employ in my day job with my underlings. I'm all in favor of giving them > all the rope they need to hang themselves, relying on their good > judgement and training to not do so. I don't want to be a babysitter, > and if my monkeys can't handle autonomy then it's time for better > training or new monkeys. > > Quis custodiet ipsos custodies? Optimus non custodies. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 17:20:07 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:20:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South References: , <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC>, , <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org><4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> Message-ID: Yeah but we are good at it, make no mistake!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Stewart, Mark (MR) To: VollyNet Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:54 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ian If it's like the last couple of years there will only be a couple of us solving the world's problems. Mark the lurker -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian & Heather King Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 12:32 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Numbers adding up, soon it'll be too expensive to 'get a round in'? ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Me > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 17:21:17 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:21:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC><4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> Message-ID: Or worse like in the states, vote a new Chief in every year or so! ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Quirke To: VollyNet Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 3:21 PM Subject: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Elected SO" "at the AGM" I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station officers positions. Simon On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and all > pissups. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 17:23:13 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:23:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz><8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> Message-ID: <0ACF0DD4C97E4C6CAF47863EB9F34AB7@SN2938977271> More to the point Ed, did they make you get a haircut for the position? ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Hintz To: VollyNet Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/2/11 3:51 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > I've heard this "who shouts the most beer" line for years but never really understood it... surely no-one seriously believes that their fellow brigade members are so foolish as to place their lives in the hands of someone on this basis? I certainly haven't seen any situations in my last 8 yrs or so in which an officer (SO/DCFO/CFO) was elected based on popularity alone, and did not have sufficient experience or skills to undertake the position. Frankly, I'd posit that if the hoi polli are really that stupid, the brigade needs better hoi polli. The father-knows-best officer isn't always going to be there to babysit the FFs, and if they're prone to making such foolish and dangerous decisions when on their own there's a whole heap of trouble just waiting to explode. I don't care how much beer a dumbass buys, s/he's still a dumbass, and won't be getting my vote for leadership. And when discussion ensues about the person I'll be sure to make my position well known. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Wed Nov 2 17:24:30 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:24:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FB@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <4EB0B442.1010908@hintz.org> Message-ID: Much like in the career staff, someone gets appointed, others resign (has happened already) ----- Original Message ----- From: Tristan Saunders To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 4:19 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Any issues arise between the successfull and the unsuccessful? > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:08:50 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 4:01 PM, Erich Speck wrote: > > > It is not easy to win an issue with you, I suppose which ever way it is done as long the best qualified person for the job is considered and not the most popular person. > > And who better to judge qualification than those who work both beside > and under the candidate(s) all the time? > > I daresay that if a SO prospect in our brigade got a negative mark from > the existing officer corps it would largely influence the decision of > the grunts, far more than a lousy bottle of beer would. So it's not as > if the brass don't get a say; their say is in fact very heavily weighted > in discussion, by virtue of their mana (to use a NZ term). > > Seems to work pretty damn well for us, anyway. Don't see why it wouldn't > work for everybody else, given a good corps of grunts. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 2 17:36:16 2011 From: nilsonfamily at xtra.co.nz (Nilson Family) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:37:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] South In-Reply-To: <1320197512.2689.1.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <2D9527DDF85348B297C03CE5C6BB8EB9@SayerfamilyPC> <4EB07AFB.4010601@hintz.org> <4A2641BA58DE4A1EAF1CF510D2F0637B@SN2938977271> <1320197512.2689.1.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <5FB23C2050C74C47988422BF0B2EBCC6@FamilyPC> I'll be there Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Marks Family Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:31 PM To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I will be there to have a good rant! Geoff Sorry to hear your not coming Ed. On Wed, 2011-11-02 at 07:54 +0800, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ian > If it's like the last couple of years there will only be a couple of us > solving the world's problems. > > > Mark the lurker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian & Heather King > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 12:32 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Numbers adding up, soon it'll be too expensive to 'get a round in'? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tristan Saunders > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:20 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] South > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Me > > > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300 > > From: ed@hintz.org > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] South > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 11/2/11 11:53 AM, Stewart, Mark (MR) wrote: > > > > > That 2 of us for a beer then > > > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and > all > > pissups. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Wed Nov 2 17:41:10 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Nov 2 17:41:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <0ACF0DD4C97E4C6CAF47863EB9F34AB7@SN2938977271> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz><8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <0ACF0DD4C97E4C6CAF47863EB9F34AB7@SN2938977271> Message-ID: <4EB0C9E6.9000507@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 5:23 PM, Ian & Heather King wrote: > More to the point Ed, did they make you get a haircut for the position? Nope. They have this funny idea around Plim that gender, race, length of hair, and other archaic methods of discrimination should have no bearing on skill and knowledge, or ones ability to do the job right. Bunch of bloody socialists. Crazy bastards. Shoulda never let a meddling hippie like me into the brigade. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Wed Nov 2 18:44:35 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Wed Nov 2 18:44:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Message-ID: <1320212675.89449.YahooMailNeo@web112520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> We too have used this process Erich, but that doesn't mean we won't look at other options in the future. ? It's another of those "we've always done it that way" things that we were brought through the system with. From: Erich Speck To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 7:41 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I served for 47 years, 15 of them as CFO for the Wainuiomata Vol Brigade. The appointment of all the officers position for all this years was always the responsibility of the executive officers CFO and DCFO.? After all it is not a popularity contest or who shouts the most beer. Erich Speck -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Simon Quirke Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:21 pm To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Elected SO" "at the AGM" I'm curious about how many brigades out there vote on their station officers positions. Simon On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:27 +1300, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > 'Fraid I've passed the torch for now; I think getting elected SO was > enough excitement for me at the AGM. :) But this year it'll be SFF > Trudie Ottow, she's a good gal and I'm sure she'll be up for any and > all pissups. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From JAWS60 at xtra.co.nz Wed Nov 2 19:36:46 2011 From: JAWS60 at xtra.co.nz (Jeff Walton) Date: Wed Nov 2 19:38:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> Message-ID: <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> Ed Once upon a time I was in a brigade which voted on officer positions. And the results were pretty much a popularity contest, with a hint of who's turn is it next. Things did start to change, but not before another popularity contest nearly split the brigade apart. Thankfully the old guard has moved on and the new regime has moved with the times and appoints the best person for the job. Jaws -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:05 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/2/11 3:51 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > I've heard this "who shouts the most beer" line for years but never really understood it... surely no-one seriously believes that their fellow brigade members are so foolish as to place their lives in the hands of someone on this basis? I certainly haven't seen any situations in my last 8 yrs or so in which an officer (SO/DCFO/CFO) was elected based on popularity alone, and did not have sufficient experience or skills to undertake the position. Frankly, I'd posit that if the hoi polli are really that stupid, the brigade needs better hoi polli. The father-knows-best officer isn't always going to be there to babysit the FFs, and if they're prone to making such foolish and dangerous decisions when on their own there's a whole heap of trouble just waiting to explode. I don't care how much beer a dumbass buys, s/he's still a dumbass, and won't be getting my vote for leadership. And when discussion ensues about the person I'll be sure to make my position well known. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From nigel at ihug.co.nz Wed Nov 2 21:13:07 2011 From: nigel at ihug.co.nz (Nigel Lilley) Date: Wed Nov 2 21:13:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 In-Reply-To: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> References: <23C195E9-4B8B-4449-A60B-128E73C4D6AD@sutorius.org> Message-ID: May 19.... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 2:45 p.m. To: vollynet Subject: [VollyNet] Skytower Challenge 2012 VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > I have a group in the brigade interested in this so I'm working on a training plan for them, but my google-fu is failing me... anyone know the date? > > Cheers! > > T. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/3989 - Release Date: 11/01/11 From tds_4 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 21:52:17 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Wed Nov 2 21:52:33 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB0C9E6.9000507@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz><8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org>, <0ACF0DD4C97E4C6CAF47863EB9F34AB7@SN2938977271>, <4EB0C9E6.9000507@hintz.org> Message-ID: new age b*stards.. hell in a handbasket.. > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:41:10 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/2/11 5:23 PM, Ian & Heather King wrote: > > > More to the point Ed, did they make you get a haircut for the position? > > Nope. They have this funny idea around Plim that gender, race, length of > hair, and other archaic methods of discrimination should have no bearing > on skill and knowledge, or ones ability to do the job right. > > Bunch of bloody socialists. Crazy bastards. Shoulda never let a meddling > hippie like me into the brigade. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 07:41:04 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 07:41:19 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> On 11/2/11 7:36 PM, Jeff Walton wrote: > Things did start to change, but not before another popularity contest nearly > split the brigade apart. I think that's the hard part. It's easy to get caught up in political popularity games, but the solution is also easy. Stay with substantive issues, and whenever somebody starts to shy into personal attacks get the debate back into bounds. The personal attacker types end up looking foolish and somewhat wild eyed. > Thankfully the old guard has moved on and the new regime has moved with the > times and appoints the best person for the job. Quite interesting. Just last night at training we had a visitor who was in a brigade that does it that way. He said that the result was basically just seniority and an entitlement style system (next in line). I suppose in very large part it depends on who is doing the picking. If they honestly pick best for job, most of the time it'll be right. If they start playing cronyism and picking their mates/political supporters, it gets ugly with haste. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From JAWS60 at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 3 08:03:48 2011 From: JAWS60 at xtra.co.nz (Jeff Walton) Date: Thu Nov 3 08:05:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> Message-ID: <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> Ed It sounds like there are down sides to any system and it's up to the management and members to keep their system on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. You may still get "that's the way it's been done here since Adam was a messenger", so recognition of best person for the job gets lost. Jaws -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 6:41 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/2/11 7:36 PM, Jeff Walton wrote: > Things did start to change, but not before another popularity contest nearly > split the brigade apart. I think that's the hard part. It's easy to get caught up in political popularity games, but the solution is also easy. Stay with substantive issues, and whenever somebody starts to shy into personal attacks get the debate back into bounds. The personal attacker types end up looking foolish and somewhat wild eyed. > Thankfully the old guard has moved on and the new regime has moved with the > times and appoints the best person for the job. Quite interesting. Just last night at training we had a visitor who was in a brigade that does it that way. He said that the result was basically just seniority and an entitlement style system (next in line). I suppose in very large part it depends on who is doing the picking. If they honestly pick best for job, most of the time it'll be right. If they start playing cronyism and picking their mates/political supporters, it gets ugly with haste. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Nov 3 08:19:52 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Nov 3 08:20:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <001301cc9994$67221c40$356654c0$@yahoo.co.nz> Yo, what did I do now? Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jeff Walton Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 8:04 a.m. To: 'VollyNet' Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ed It sounds like there are down sides to any system and it's up to the management and members to keep their system on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. You may still get "that's the way it's been done here since Adam was a messenger", so recognition of best person for the job gets lost. Jaws -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 6:41 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/2/11 7:36 PM, Jeff Walton wrote: > Things did start to change, but not before another popularity contest nearly > split the brigade apart. I think that's the hard part. It's easy to get caught up in political popularity games, but the solution is also easy. Stay with substantive issues, and whenever somebody starts to shy into personal attacks get the debate back into bounds. The personal attacker types end up looking foolish and somewhat wild eyed. > Thankfully the old guard has moved on and the new regime has moved > with the > times and appoints the best person for the job. Quite interesting. Just last night at training we had a visitor who was in a brigade that does it that way. He said that the result was basically just seniority and an entitlement style system (next in line). I suppose in very large part it depends on who is doing the picking. If they honestly pick best for job, most of the time it'll be right. If they start playing cronyism and picking their mates/political supporters, it gets ugly with haste. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Thu Nov 3 09:11:08 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Thu Nov 3 09:12:29 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz><4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> Message-ID: Plus you have the situation where the longets serving SFF and the one with the most respect and mana, isn't interested in progression? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Walton To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:03 AM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ed It sounds like there are down sides to any system and it's up to the management and members to keep their system on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. You may still get "that's the way it's been done here since Adam was a messenger", so recognition of best person for the job gets lost. Jaws -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 6:41 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/2/11 7:36 PM, Jeff Walton wrote: > Things did start to change, but not before another popularity contest nearly > split the brigade apart. I think that's the hard part. It's easy to get caught up in political popularity games, but the solution is also easy. Stay with substantive issues, and whenever somebody starts to shy into personal attacks get the debate back into bounds. The personal attacker types end up looking foolish and somewhat wild eyed. > Thankfully the old guard has moved on and the new regime has moved with the > times and appoints the best person for the job. Quite interesting. Just last night at training we had a visitor who was in a brigade that does it that way. He said that the result was basically just seniority and an entitlement style system (next in line). I suppose in very large part it depends on who is doing the picking. If they honestly pick best for job, most of the time it'll be right. If they start playing cronyism and picking their mates/political supporters, it gets ugly with haste. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 09:30:57 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 09:31:11 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz><4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> On 11/3/11 9:11 AM, Ian & Heather King wrote: > Plus you have the situation where the longets serving SFF and the one with the most respect and mana, isn't interested in progression? Our example of that isn't the least bit shy in expressing who he thinks is best suited to take the job (or for that matter, in giving anyone who nominates him for the gig a rousing and enthusiastic bronx cheer). His input certainly carries weight equivalent to that of the brass. I freely admit that as an SO with all of 8 yrs experience it's a bit odd to be OIC of an SFF whose gold star ceremony I attended as a newbie FF. I'd happily give him command if he wanted it ('cause he's bloody well capable), but he hates the idea of being in charge more than I do, so I got railroaded into the gig. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 09:47:34 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 09:48:22 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz><4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> On 11/3/11 9:30 AM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > capable), but he hates the idea of being in charge more than I do, so I > got railroaded into the gig. :) Which actually raises an interesting point. I don't have any particular desire to be SO or OIC. I do it because it needs to be done. I'm perfectly content to sit back and be an SFF, but we have a vacancy that needs to be filled and I'm currently the chap who everybody thinks is best to fill it. I'm more than happy to step down in a few years time when some of our younger SFFs get to where they're ready for command. I don't have any compelling need or desire to be OIC, I do it because it's what the brigade needs from me. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. When Anton Sutorius proposed coming back to us it was pointed out to me that if he came in, he would likely fill the SO position that might otherwise be mine. Which I was enthusiastically in support of. The guys got 50 bloody years experience in both paid and volly. Respect. I'd have to be a jackass to think that at 5 yrs exp I would be better at it than him. And that's exactly how it worked out too; I sat at SFF for about 3 yrs until he retired. It was clearly the best thing for the brigade, not me(from a promotions standpoint anyway), and that's precisely what I want. I rather *like* the fact that in a few years time I could be voted out to make room for an ambitious young SFF who wants to take on the challenge. Sitting forever in the role just isn't my thing. And if the rest of the brigade wants to give the young'un a shot at the front seat, please, be my guest. I'll just kick back and be driver/pump op or something. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From a.a.hartley at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:58:33 2011 From: a.a.hartley at gmail.com (Anaru Hartley) Date: Thu Nov 3 10:58:57 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz><4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4eb1bd11.e56f340a.308d.ffffaac1@mx.google.com> You're a rare breed Ed, I wish more were like you instead of using fire brigades and the rank structure to compensate for short comings in other areas of their life. However, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on years of experience - people can be useless at something for a long time. Just look at our politicians. There is a video on TED.com about a game some teacher developed where a class of primary school students can role play a global community of countries, develop policies, trade and grasp everything else that running countries encompasses - and they achieve amazing results. I'd love to see how they ran a fire service. > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet- > bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 09:48 > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > > Which actually raises an interesting point. I don't have any particular > desire to be SO or OIC. I do it because it needs to be done. I'm > perfectly content to sit back and be an SFF, but we have a vacancy that > needs to be filled and I'm currently the chap who everybody thinks is > best to fill it. I'm more than happy to step down in a few years time > when some of our younger SFFs get to where they're ready for command. I > don't have any compelling need or desire to be OIC, I do it because ... From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 3 11:58:11 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 3 11:58:30 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> Message-ID: Ed You're a legend - compare that to a brigade I know of *ahem* where there is an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and yet clings on to the position for dear life That's the sort of thing we need to end IMO b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/3/11 9:30 AM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > capable), but he hates the idea of being in charge more than I do, so I > > got railroaded into the gig. :) > > Which actually raises an interesting point. I don't have any particular > desire to be SO or OIC. I do it because it needs to be done. I'm > perfectly content to sit back and be an SFF, but we have a vacancy that > needs to be filled and I'm currently the chap who everybody thinks is > best to fill it. I'm more than happy to step down in a few years time > when some of our younger SFFs get to where they're ready for command. I > don't have any compelling need or desire to be OIC, I do it because it's > what the brigade needs from me. As JFK said, ask not what your country > can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. > > When Anton Sutorius proposed coming back to us it was pointed out to me > that if he came in, he would likely fill the SO position that might > otherwise be mine. Which I was enthusiastically in support of. The guys > got 50 bloody years experience in both paid and volly. Respect. I'd have > to be a jackass to think that at 5 yrs exp I would be better at it than > him. And that's exactly how it worked out too; I sat at SFF for about 3 > yrs until he retired. It was clearly the best thing for the brigade, not > me(from a promotions standpoint anyway), and that's precisely what I want. > > I rather *like* the fact that in a few years time I could be voted out > to make room for an ambitious young SFF who wants to take on the > challenge. Sitting forever in the role just isn't my thing. And if the > rest of the brigade wants to give the young'un a shot at the front seat, > please, be my guest. I'll just kick back and be driver/pump op or > something. :) > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 12:01:56 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:02:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be > OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and > yet clings on to the position for dear life I just don't get it. Why. /me shrugs Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 3 12:03:51 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:04:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> Message-ID: becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... ah well b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be > > OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and > > yet clings on to the position for dear life > > I just don't get it. Why. > > /me shrugs > > Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 12:13:18 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:13:29 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EB1CE8E.2040608@hintz.org> On 11/3/11 12:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be >> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and >> yet clings on to the position for dear life > > I just don't get it. Why. > > /me shrugs > > Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > Y'know. The long serving SFF is like the bassist in the band. Doesn't get all the attention like the singer or guitarist (with rare exceptions like Lemmy, Geddy Lee, Steve Harris). But is absolutely critical in making the opportunity for those roles to get the attention in the first place. They hold the show together during the grandstanding. Me, I'm cool with being either one, as long as we go on tour and get lots of hookers and blow... (The wife piped in and said no hookers and blow for me, drat) :D -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tony at sutorius.org Thu Nov 3 12:28:53 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:29:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> Message-ID: <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, firefighters and senior firefighters who include- A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into the Himalayas A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and experience A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the world, from the Andes to Antarctica Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful hospitality businesses employing a number of staff A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time to consider it. I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my community. And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized new members put up with it. T. On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > > and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > > ah well > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >> >>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be >>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and >>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >> >> I just don't get it. Why. >> >> /me shrugs >> >> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Ed Hintz >> ed@hintz.org >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 3 12:34:19 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:34:39 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> Message-ID: tony you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, frankly, lack capability? hmmm b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" > is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion > is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > > Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, > firefighters and senior firefighters who include- > > A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into > the Himalayas > > A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > > An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > experience > > A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the > world, from the Andes to Antarctica > > Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful > hospitality businesses employing a number of staff > > A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, > has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > > ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time > to consider it. > > I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place > if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us > who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > community. > > And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they > should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized > new members put up with it. > > T. > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > > > > and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > > > > ah well > > > > b > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> > >>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to > be > >>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility > and > >>> yet clings on to the position for dear life > >> > >> I just don't get it. Why. > >> > >> /me shrugs > >> > >> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > >> > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ed Hintz > >> ed@hintz.org > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From nelsonc at xnet.co.nz Thu Nov 3 12:52:54 2011 From: nelsonc at xnet.co.nz (Chris Nelson) Date: Thu Nov 3 12:54:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> Message-ID: <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> When I first joined 15 odd years ago we voted for SO when a position was available. As time has gone by we now abide by the NZFS rules and when a SO position is available those that wish to apply can (has to have at least the officer's course under their belt). CFO and DCFO will interview applicants and appoint as they see fit. >From my reading of the rules this is the correct NZFS way of doing this. There is no way to step down/ demote a SO unless there is a performance issue or bad behaviour. So a SO can stay in the position as long as they like. Some brigades may vote for SO once a year at an AGM and if the brigade decides to change a SO then this is breaching the rules. The demoted SO could fight this and I expect would win. I would like to see the Model Rules or Brigade Rules as they are now proposing have an appointment term set out for CFO, DCFO and SO. Say 5 years with right of re appointment. This would allow flexibility for both the CFO and region to have the best person in the job and provide improved succession planning. In the commercial world not many organizations have the same CEO for more than 5 - 10 years and yet the NZFS have some chiefs 20+ years. I am not saying all those CFO's are not doing their job correctly but there is a reason why CEO's in the real world move on - a bit like governments!! Also I have read here before some brigades have their own rules over and above the model rules. Is this the norm? From my understanding if you want to change or deviate from the Model Rules then approval has to be given by the FS Commission. My point mainly is there are many different ways brigades apply the rules across the country, as long as they work for the brigade then who cares. But if the s**t hits the fan then it all comes back to the rule book. I am happy to be corrected. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 12:02 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to > be OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on > responsibility and yet clings on to the position for dear life I just don't get it. Why. /me shrugs Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Thu Nov 3 13:05:17 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Nov 3 13:05:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Hi Ben, Thing is, they're probably quite correct to feel threatened, if they've turned their brigade into an empire of self-importance, built on politics and time served. I have been very, very gentle about saying it over the years, but as I approach 20 years in and "grey hair" status I find myself exceedingly impatient with this bullshit. It's an abuse of position to aggrandize yourself as an officer or chief at the expense of getting the absolute best performance and value you can out of every single member; its a heist, filching social prestige and mana for yourself at the expense of your fellow volunteers, your brigade and your community. Perhaps sometimes chiefs just slip into this mode; in fairness it is the tradition, and many of our structures (eg "job for life" status for chiefs) does encourage this outlook. So, maybe a gentle chat from a small delegation about the future, untapped skills in the brigade and succession planning would spark sufficient self-reflection in many. If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics run a remarkably effective asylum. T. On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > tony > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > frankly, lack capability? > > hmmm > > b > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. >> >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- >> >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into >> the Himalayas >> >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher >> >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and >> experience >> >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica >> >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff >> >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician >> >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time >> to consider it. >> >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my >> community. >> >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized >> new members put up with it. >> >> T. >> >> >> >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. >>> >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... >>> >>> ah well >>> >>> b >>> >>> >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >>> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >>> web www.diversity.net.nz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >>>> >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to >> be >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility >> and >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >>>> >>>> I just don't get it. Why. >>>> >>>> /me shrugs >>>> >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Nov 3 13:10:31 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Nov 3 13:10:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Tony I agree entirely.... Hoping that our own AM, considering his experience in the troops, as a Vollie chief and now as a paid AM will see this and ruminate on it a little Ross? ;-) b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Ben, > > Thing is, they're probably quite correct to feel threatened, if they've > turned their brigade into an empire of self-importance, built on politics > and time served. > > I have been very, very gentle about saying it over the years, but as I > approach 20 years in and "grey hair" status I find myself exceedingly > impatient with this bullshit. > > It's an abuse of position to aggrandize yourself as an officer or chief at > the expense of getting the absolute best performance and value you can out > of every single member; its a heist, filching social prestige and mana for > yourself at the expense of your fellow volunteers, your brigade and your > community. > > Perhaps sometimes chiefs just slip into this mode; in fairness it is the > tradition, and many of our structures (eg "job for life" status for chiefs) > does encourage this outlook. So, maybe a gentle chat from a small > delegation about the future, untapped skills in the brigade and succession > planning would spark sufficient self-reflection in many. > > If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and > honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should > be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. > > From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics > run a remarkably effective asylum. > > T. > > > > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > tony > > > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > > frankly, lack capability? > > > > hmmm > > > > b > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" > >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones > opinion > >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > >> > >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, > >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- > >> > >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into > >> the Himalayas > >> > >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > >> > >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > >> experience > >> > >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the > >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica > >> > >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful > >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff > >> > >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, > >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > >> > >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the > time > >> to consider it. > >> > >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better > place > >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of > us > >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > >> community. > >> > >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they > >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the > marginalized > >> new members put up with it. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > >>> > >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > >>> > >>> ah well > >>> > >>> b > >>> > >>> > >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > >>> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > >>> web www.diversity.net.nz > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > >>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared > to > >> be > >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility > >> and > >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life > >>>> > >>>> I just don't get it. Why. > >>>> > >>>> /me shrugs > >>>> > >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From gdub at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 3 13:11:01 2011 From: gdub at xtra.co.nz (Gareth Wallis) Date: Thu Nov 3 13:11:16 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Well said Tony. The strength of our Brigade is absolutely the diversity of our membership and what each and every one of them brings to the table...good and challenging at times too. All of our members have a genuine say in how we operate and we are better off for it. Regards, G. On 3/11/11 12:28 PM, "Tony Sutorius" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" is > officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion is > worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > > Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, firefighters > and senior firefighters who include- > > A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into the > Himalayas > > A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > > An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > experience > > A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the world, > from the Andes to Antarctica > > Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful hospitality > businesses employing a number of staff > > A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, has > written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > > ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time to > consider it. > > I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place if > it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us who > happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > community. > > And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they should > organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized new > members put up with it. > > T. > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. >> >> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... >> >> ah well >> >> b >> >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >> web www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >>> >>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be >>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and >>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >>> >>> I just don't get it. Why. >>> >>> /me shrugs >>> >>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed Hintz >>> ed@hintz.org >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Gareth Wallis (027) 495 6825 From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:01:30 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:01:46 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org>, <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz>, <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org>, <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz>, , <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org>, , <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org>, Message-ID: My philosophy is similar. I have a great deal of respect for the heirarchial structure and for the positions (not necessarily the people) (bit like on Band of Brothers 'salute the rank, not the man', but that needs to be earnt. People in these positions would keep them were they doing a good job, after they got them by proving their ability, and willingness, to do so. I'm not quite sold on the democratic appointment process, but having the Chief interview them and assess their ability before being presented for acclamation goes somewhat towards satisfying the executive appointment and operational responsibilities that the chief has.. > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:03:51 -0700 > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > > and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > > ah well > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > > > an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be > > > OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and > > > yet clings on to the position for dear life > > > > I just don't get it. Why. > > > > /me shrugs > > > > Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:03:33 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:03:43 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <4EB1CE8E.2040608@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org>, <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz>, <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org>, <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz>, , <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org>, , <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org>, <4EB1CE8E.2040608@hintz.org> Message-ID: Every brigade needs their SFF's. They have an uncanny ability to keep the lower ranks and the upper ranks in line... > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:13:18 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 11/3/11 12:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > >> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be > >> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and > >> yet clings on to the position for dear life > > > > I just don't get it. Why. > > > > /me shrugs > > > > Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > > > > Y'know. The long serving SFF is like the bassist in the band. Doesn't > get all the attention like the singer or guitarist (with rare exceptions > like Lemmy, Geddy Lee, Steve Harris). But is absolutely critical in > making the opportunity for those roles to get the attention in the first > place. They hold the show together during the grandstanding. Me, I'm > cool with being either one, as long as we go on tour and get lots of > hookers and blow... > > (The wife piped in and said no hookers and blow for me, drat) :D > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Thu Nov 3 14:06:17 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:06:37 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: Message-ID: <0BFB81B9467E4659885CA9B1DDAAB085@SN2938977271> Interesting when you read it like that Tony, I've got no pilots, single mums, school teachers, etc. But recently when our SSO of 35 years experience died and another SO with 33 years retired (both only in mid 50's), appointing a new SSO with only 13 years experience didn't make the brigade go backwards? Diversity - on any given day the first 5 ff's to our station when the siren goes are probably all engineers? ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Wallis To: VollyNet Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Well said Tony. The strength of our Brigade is absolutely the diversity of our membership and what each and every one of them brings to the table...good and challenging at times too. All of our members have a genuine say in how we operate and we are better off for it. Regards, G. On 3/11/11 12:28 PM, "Tony Sutorius" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" is > officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion is > worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > > Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, firefighters > and senior firefighters who include- > > A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into the > Himalayas > > A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > > An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > experience > > A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the world, > from the Andes to Antarctica > > Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful hospitality > businesses employing a number of staff > > A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, has > written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > > ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time to > consider it. > > I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place if > it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us who > happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > community. > > And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they should > organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized new > members put up with it. > > T. > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. >> >> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... >> >> ah well >> >> b >> >> >> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 >> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes >> web www.diversity.net.nz >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >>> >>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to be >>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility and >>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >>> >>> I just don't get it. Why. >>> >>> /me shrugs >>> >>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed Hintz >>> ed@hintz.org >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Gareth Wallis (027) 495 6825 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From 4kings at nettel.net.nz Thu Nov 3 14:07:27 2011 From: 4kings at nettel.net.nz (Ian & Heather King) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:07:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org><4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <126F395C0632407E9C30A8CA48F1E3D5@SN2938977271> In the commercial world Chris CEO's only stay 5 years cause they can then move on with a sizeable golden handshake - give me something similar and I'll go tomorrow! ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Nelson To: 'VollyNet' Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:52 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- When I first joined 15 odd years ago we voted for SO when a position was available. As time has gone by we now abide by the NZFS rules and when a SO position is available those that wish to apply can (has to have at least the officer's course under their belt). CFO and DCFO will interview applicants and appoint as they see fit. >From my reading of the rules this is the correct NZFS way of doing this. There is no way to step down/ demote a SO unless there is a performance issue or bad behaviour. So a SO can stay in the position as long as they like. Some brigades may vote for SO once a year at an AGM and if the brigade decides to change a SO then this is breaching the rules. The demoted SO could fight this and I expect would win. I would like to see the Model Rules or Brigade Rules as they are now proposing have an appointment term set out for CFO, DCFO and SO. Say 5 years with right of re appointment. This would allow flexibility for both the CFO and region to have the best person in the job and provide improved succession planning. In the commercial world not many organizations have the same CEO for more than 5 - 10 years and yet the NZFS have some chiefs 20+ years. I am not saying all those CFO's are not doing their job correctly but there is a reason why CEO's in the real world move on - a bit like governments!! Also I have read here before some brigades have their own rules over and above the model rules. Is this the norm? From my understanding if you want to change or deviate from the Model Rules then approval has to be given by the FS Commission. My point mainly is there are many different ways brigades apply the rules across the country, as long as they work for the brigade then who cares. But if the s**t hits the fan then it all comes back to the rule book. I am happy to be corrected. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 12:02 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to > be OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on > responsibility and yet clings on to the position for dear life I just don't get it. Why. /me shrugs Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz Thu Nov 3 14:30:28 2011 From: simon.quirke at ihug.co.nz (Simon Quirke) Date: Thu Nov 3 14:30:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <684a1c92c5539c5efd87db75a47cbddf@vodafone.co.nz> So now I throw another question out there - which rules? On Firenet I can find a "guide" for CFOs. This sets out the criteria to be met by an applicant and certain steps to be taken but, interestingly, does not specifically say that it is up to the CFO to make the selection. It does say "select best candidate", so a brigade vote could be seen a legitimate way of completing this step. The UFBA Model Rules of Association don't appear to cover the subject at all. On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:52:54 +1300, "Chris Nelson" wrote: > > When I first joined 15 odd years ago we voted for SO when a position was > available. As time has gone by we now abide by the NZFS rules and when a SO > position is available those that wish to apply can (has to have at least > the > officer's course under their belt). CFO and DCFO will interview applicants > and appoint as they see fit. > >>From my reading of the rules this is the correct NZFS way of doing this. > > There is no way to step down/ demote a SO unless there is a performance > issue or bad behaviour. So a SO can stay in the position as long as they > like. > > Some brigades may vote for SO once a year at an AGM and if the brigade > decides to change a SO then this is breaching the rules. The demoted SO > could fight this and I expect would win. > > I would like to see the Model Rules or Brigade Rules as they are now > proposing have an appointment term set out for CFO, DCFO and SO. Say 5 > years > with right of re appointment. This would allow flexibility for both the CFO > and region to have the best person in the job and provide improved > succession planning. > > In the commercial world not many organizations have the same CEO for more > than 5 - 10 years and yet the NZFS have some chiefs 20+ years. I am not > saying all those CFO's are not doing their job correctly but there is a > reason why CEO's in the real world move on - a bit like governments!! > > Also I have read here before some brigades have their own rules over and > above the model rules. Is this the norm? From my understanding if you want > to change or deviate from the Model Rules then approval has to be given by > the FS Commission. > > My point mainly is there are many different ways brigades apply the rules > across the country, as long as they work for the brigade then who cares. > But > if the s**t hits the fan then it all comes back to the rule book. > > I am happy to be corrected. From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Thu Nov 3 16:04:41 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Thu Nov 3 16:06:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <1320289481.90547.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Within the last two years we have lost our CFO, DCFO and both SSo's......... ? ..........we're still alive. ;0 ? ? If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics run a remarkably effective asylum. T. On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > tony > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > frankly, lack capability? > > hmmm > > b > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. >> >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- >> >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into >> the Himalayas >> >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher >> >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and >> experience >> >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica >> >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff >> >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician >> >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time >> to consider it. >> >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my >> community. >> >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized >> new members put up with it. >> >> T. >> >> >> >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. >>> >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... >>> >>> ah well >>> >>> b >>> >>> >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 >>> skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes >>> web www.diversity.net.nz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >>>> >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to >> be >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility >> and >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >>>> >>>> I just don't get it. Why. >>>> >>>> /me shrugs >>>> >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From mgkmontys at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 3 17:35:55 2011 From: mgkmontys at xtra.co.nz (Mark Montgomery) Date: Thu Nov 3 17:36:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <1320289481.90547.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org> <1320289481.90547.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320294955.22159.YahooMailNeo@web96111.mail.aue.yahoo.com> You guys must be pretty careless to just lose people. Can't you remember where you left them? ? Seriously though brigades do have people come and go. Some stay a long time (sometimes too long) other a short time. ? The challenge, irrespective of rank, is to get the best out of the people you have. Once they have got through their basic training you can start to utilise their skills if they are willing. ? My first brigade had long serving members that had been DCFO's for many years and had chosen to step back to SFF when they felt the time was right for them. Not all people have this wisdom but it does give you some real strength on the fire ground. ? Personally?I do not think electing senior officers is a good option. Lower ranks fine, if they can meet the criteria set down by the service and the brigade. I see that the SFF role is a bit like the NCO role in the military, without it you have leaders?or you have?grunts with nothing between or linking them. ? Monty ? Allan Hoult wrote: Within the last two years we have lost our CFO, DCFO and both SSo's.......... ? ..........we're still alive. ;0 ? ? If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics run a remarkably effective asylum. T. On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > tony > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > frankly, lack capability? > > hmmm > > b > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. >> >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- >> >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into >> the Himalayas >> >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher >> >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and >> experience >> >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica >> >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff >> >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician >> >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time >> to consider it. >> >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my >> community.. >> >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized >> new members put up with it. >> >> T. >> >> >> >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. >>> >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... >>> >>> ah well >>> >>> b >>> >>> >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 >>> skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes >>> web www.diversity..net.nz >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: >>>> >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to >> be >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility >> and >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life >>>> >>>> I just don't get it. Why. >>>> >>>> /me shrugs >>>> >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From nelsonc at xnet.co.nz Thu Nov 3 17:35:46 2011 From: nelsonc at xnet.co.nz (Chris Nelson) Date: Thu Nov 3 17:37:01 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <684a1c92c5539c5efd87db75a47cbddf@vodafone.co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> <684a1c92c5539c5efd87db75a47cbddf@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <003901cc99e2$0e0e7970$2a2b6c50$@xnet.co.nz> >From the document "Volunteer Senior Station Officer /Station Officer Promotional Process" it states Interview Suitable candidates: ? within 14 days ? panel of 3 including CFO, Area Representative and another suitable officer It does say ? Select best candidate and consult with FRM/AM on appointment ? Notification of promotion: ? Have Gazette Notice prepared to promulgate the promotion [Region Office] ? Advise NHQ HR of promotion [updates SMS also] ? All Volunteer Fire Brigade members notified via email and notice It implies that the interview panel make the selection and advise the brigade of the decision. People will interpret this differently and it doesn't state the brigade doesn't have a vote but I would imagine that is not what is intended. As I said before, if what works for you works then it doesn't matter. If you are a stickler for the rules then have fun. :) VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- So now I throw another question out there - which rules? On Firenet I can find a "guide" for CFOs. This sets out the criteria to be met by an applicant and certain steps to be taken but, interestingly, does not specifically say that it is up to the CFO to make the selection. It does say "select best candidate", so a brigade vote could be seen a legitimate way of completing this step. The UFBA Model Rules of Association don't appear to cover the subject at all. On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:52:54 +1300, "Chris Nelson" wrote: > > When I first joined 15 odd years ago we voted for SO when a position > was available. As time has gone by we now abide by the NZFS rules and > when a SO > position is available those that wish to apply can (has to have at > least the officer's course under their belt). CFO and DCFO will > interview applicants > and appoint as they see fit. > >>From my reading of the rules this is the correct NZFS way of doing this. > > There is no way to step down/ demote a SO unless there is a > performance issue or bad behaviour. So a SO can stay in the position > as long as they like. > > Some brigades may vote for SO once a year at an AGM and if the brigade > decides to change a SO then this is breaching the rules. The demoted > SO could fight this and I expect would win. > > I would like to see the Model Rules or Brigade Rules as they are now > proposing have an appointment term set out for CFO, DCFO and SO. Say 5 > years with right of re appointment. This would allow flexibility for > both the CFO > and region to have the best person in the job and provide improved > succession planning. > > In the commercial world not many organizations have the same CEO for > more than 5 - 10 years and yet the NZFS have some chiefs 20+ years. I > am not saying all those CFO's are not doing their job correctly but > there is a reason why CEO's in the real world move on - a bit like governments!! > > Also I have read here before some brigades have their own rules over > and above the model rules. Is this the norm? From my understanding if > you want > to change or deviate from the Model Rules then approval has to be > given by > the FS Commission. > > My point mainly is there are many different ways brigades apply the > rules across the country, as long as they work for the brigade then who cares. > But > if the s**t hits the fan then it all comes back to the rule book. > > I am happy to be corrected. ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Nov 3 17:49:24 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Nov 3 17:49:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <003901cc99e2$0e0e7970$2a2b6c50$@xnet.co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> <684a1c92c5539c5efd87db75a47cbddf@vodafone.co.nz> <003901cc99e2$0e0e7970$2a2b6c50$@xnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EB21D54.7050705@hintz.org> On 11/3/11 5:35 PM, Chris Nelson wrote: > It implies that the interview panel make the selection and advise the brigade of the decision. > > People will interpret this differently and it doesn't state the brigade doesn't have a vote but I would imagine that is not what is intended. My gut instinct? The intent is not to deal with how the decision is made at a brigade level. The intent is to create a way that regional can maintain some control and try to keep a known yahoo out of a position. Kinda reminds me of the US system; congress makes laws(popularity), but the prez has to sign it before it's law (and of course the supreme court can declare a law legally void even if congress and prez go for it). Ergo popular vote can get you to the consideration point, but this formal process gives them a way to weed out yahoos. Hell, there's your answer right there to the buys-the-most-beer-but-isn't-competent argument. The area rep on the panel simply vetoes, game over. Whether the candidate got to that point by popularity, skill, or CFO butt kissing doesn't matter. Game over, insert another quarter. > As I said before, if what works for you works then it doesn't matter. If you are a stickler for the rules then have fun. :) Yup. At the end of the day, what works for the brigade works for the brigade, and one size prolly won't fit all. Fair 'nuff. Just glad I'm in a place that does it how we do. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:44:12 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Nov 3 21:44:30 2011 Subject: FW: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org>, <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz>, <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org>, <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz>, , <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org>, <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org>, , <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org>, , <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org>, , , <1320289481.90547.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: From: tds_4@hotmail.com To: allanhoult@yahoo.com.au Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 21:43:25 +1300 You may still be alive.. but are you kicking as well? Brigades (speaking from experience but wont name names..) do survive, but they struggle or just tread water.. The experience, stability and maturity that goes with those people is hard to learn without that guidance. I also know from experience that those older, longer serving people create a different environment than the newbies do on their own... The establishments that don't have these stalwarts, are 'generally' worse off. (taking into account the wastes of space..) > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:04:41 -0700 > From: allanhoult@yahoo.com.au > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Within the last two years we have lost our CFO, DCFO and both SSo's......... > > ..........we're still alive. ;0 > > > If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. > > From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics run a remarkably effective asylum. > > T. > > > > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > tony > > > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > > frankly, lack capability? > > > > hmmm > > > > b > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" > >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion > >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > >> > >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, > >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- > >> > >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into > >> the Himalayas > >> > >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > >> > >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > >> experience > >> > >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the > >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica > >> > >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful > >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff > >> > >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, > >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > >> > >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time > >> to consider it. > >> > >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place > >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us > >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > >> community. > >> > >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they > >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized > >> new members put up with it. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > >>> > >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > >>> > >>> ah well > >>> > >>> b > >>> > >>> > >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > >>> skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > >>> web www.diversity.net.nz > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > >>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to > >> be > >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility > >> and > >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life > >>>> > >>>> I just don't get it. Why. > >>>> > >>>> /me shrugs > >>>> > >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Nov 3 22:11:44 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Nov 3 22:12:37 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org> <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz> <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz> <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org> <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org> <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <1320311504.1972.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> On Thu, 2011-11-03 at 12:52 +1300, Chris Nelson wrote: > Also I have read here before some brigades have their own rules over > and > above the model rules. Is this the norm? From my understanding if you > want > to change or deviate from the Model Rules then approval has to be > given by > the FS Commission. The Agreement of Service is the document that dictates whether a Brigade need to get the express approval of the NZFSC. We do not have this in our Agreement so can change our rules. From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Thu Nov 3 23:19:50 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Thu Nov 3 23:20:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Elections In-Reply-To: References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org>, <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz>, <4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org>, <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz>, , <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org>, , <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org>, , <7D056109-C26F-4F9D-A10C-E177D6BB6786@sutorius.org>, , , <1320289481.90547.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320315590.3713.YahooMailNeo@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Very much kicking Tristan. The bulk of the Brigade are now more qualified than in the past, members are attending (and passing) more courses, and WANTING to attend said courses. We have been involved in more community events, and have delegated tasks to members of the Brigade other than the officers and attach a mentor to each one to help with the transition for the future, as we also know there will come a time when we too will leave the fold. ? As with any Brigade we are mindful of educating our members of what subjects?are up?for discussion and which aren't. By that I mean that magical line that exists between operational matters on the drill/fire ground and organisational matters of running the Brigade itself. ? One subject you won't get any arguement from me is the huge vaccuum that occurs when members with vital experience leave the ranks. We have experienced it firsthand, and so that is why we don't want to leave future administrations with the same legacy. Having said that, many members that hadn't anticipated having a senior role within the Brigade really took to the job like a duck to water and are thriving in the environment. How do you know if you're capable if never given the opportunity? ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Tristan Saunders To: allanhoult@yahoo.com.au Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 1:43 AM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Elections You may still be alive.. but are you kicking as well? Brigades (speaking from experience but wont name names..) do survive, but they struggle or just tread water.. The experience, stability and maturity that goes with those people is hard to learn without that guidance. I also know from experience that those older, longer serving people create a different environment than the newbies do on their own...? The establishments that don't have these stalwarts, are 'generally' worse off. (taking into account the wastes of space..) > Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:04:41 -0700 > From: allanhoult@yahoo.com.au > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Elections > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Within the last two years we have lost our CFO, DCFO and both SSo's......... > ? > ..........we're still alive. ;0 > ? > ? > If not though... I think those people need to be offered a graceful and honourable retirement transition; if they're not keen on that, they should be removed by the Regional Commander or the brigade itself. > > From retirement, they'll very likely be amazed to see that the lunatics run a remarkably effective asylum. > > T. > > > > > > > On 3/11/2011, at 12:34, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > tony > > > > you too are a legend - how to articulate that to threatened members who, > > frankly, lack capability? > > > > hmmm > > > > b > > > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> And THIS RIGHT HERE is the price brigades pay for a culture where "rank" > >> is officially considered to confer wisdom and prestige, and no-ones opinion > >> is worth anything till they've done ten years and 1,000 calls. > >> > >> Just off the top of my head, I'm officer to a group of recruits, > >> firefighters and senior firefighters who include- > >> > >> A senior IT manager with dozens of staff who has led an expedition into > >> the Himalayas > >> > >> A degree-qualified outdoor education instructor, single mother & teacher > >> > >> An HR professional in a major government agency, with a UK degree and > >> experience > >> > >> A professional administrative systems consultant who has travelled the > >> world, from the Andes to Antarctica > >> > >> Two entrepreneurs who (separately) have created and run successful > >> hospitality businesses employing a number of staff > >> > >> A school teacher with 20 years experience who is also a qualified pilot, > >> has written textbooks for adults, and is a semi-professional musician > >> > >> ...and so on. A great team with extraordinary depth, when I take the time > >> to consider it. > >> > >> I'd be an absolute dork to assume that the brigade would be a better place > >> if it's important decisions were made without these guys, by the few of us > >> who happen to have been hanging around the longest. In fact, that'd be a > >> ridiculous thing to do, surely serving only my ego; certainly not my > >> community. > >> > >> And yet that seems to be how many volunteer brigades still think they > >> should organise themselves. I'm astonished, and wonder why the marginalized > >> new members put up with it. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 3/11/2011, at 12:03, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> becuase he gets his jollys from pulling rank and strutting his stuff.. > >>> > >>> and ultimately feels incredibly threatened.... > >>> > >>> ah well > >>> > >>> b > >>> > >>> > >>> Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > >>> E ben@diversity.net.nz? |? P +64 3 3146006? |? M 021 2384136 > >>> skype ben_kepes? |? twitter @benkepes > >>> web www.diversity.net.nz > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > >>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 11/3/11 11:58 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> an SO who is there because "he's been there the longest", is scared to > >> be > >>>>> OIC and has admitted no desire to progress or take on responsibility > >> and > >>>>> yet clings on to the position for dear life > >>>> > >>>> I just don't get it. Why. > >>>> > >>>> /me shrugs > >>>> > >>>> Jim Morrison had it right. People are strange. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:50:24 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sun Nov 6 18:50:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] area In-Reply-To: <1320311504.1972.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8FA@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz>, <8B3AA9EA-2405-4872-AA97-EDE135731D76@sutorius.org>, <4EB0B377.3000808@hintz.org> <000001cc9929$ce675890$6b3609b0$@co.nz>,<4EB18EC0.6010001@hintz.org> <000001cc9992$2a1e5e50$7e5b1af0$@co.nz>, , <4EB1A881.6050504@hintz.org> <4EB1AC66.3050104@hintz.org>, , <4EB1CBE4.8040301@hintz.org>, <003501cc99ba$8a6fa0c0$9f4ee240$@xnet.co.nz>, <1320311504.1972.8.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: anyone got the areas map that was put out with the introduction of the 26 areas..?