From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Mon Oct 24 14:37:44 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Mon Oct 24 14:38:03 2011 Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Nelson Mail report In-Reply-To: References: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1319192610.19653.YahooMailNeo@web112515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319420264.87775.YahooMailNeo@web112503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I?believe a similar thing has already started in another region. No reporting, no OSM data entry etc. ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Ian & Heather King <4kings@nettel.net.nz> To: Allan Hoult Sent: Sunday, 23 October 2011 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Nelson Mail report ? I hear today that the vollies in Northland are to introduce action like no paperwork, no radio messages etc? ----- Original Message ----- >From: Allan Hoult >To: VollyNet >Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:23 PM >Subject: [VollyNet] Nelson Mail report > >VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/5828739/Staff-cut-plan-a-real-worry-for-fire-chiefs > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 24 14:53:45 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 24 14:53:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action Message-ID: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> Gidday all, I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. Tony From graeme.booth at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:21:55 2011 From: graeme.booth at gmail.com (Graeme Booth) Date: Mon Oct 24 16:22:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Hi Tony I've heard mutterings but I don't know of anyone taking direct action. My suggestion would be to wait until the final draft is out, asses the situation, then decide on what action needs to be taken. Graeme Booth On 24 October 2011 14:53, Tony Sutorius wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Gidday all, > > I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > > I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > > We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > > Tony > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tds_4 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 24 18:51:59 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Mon Oct 24 18:52:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, Message-ID: That may be too late Graeme. Typical Fire service. > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:21:55 +1300 > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > From: graeme.booth@gmail.com > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony > > I've heard mutterings but I don't know of anyone taking direct action. > My suggestion would be to wait until the final draft is out, asses the > situation, then decide on what action needs to be taken. > > Graeme Booth > > On 24 October 2011 14:53, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Gidday all, > > > > I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > > > > I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > > > > We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > > > > Tony > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 24 18:52:59 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Mon Oct 24 18:53:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Wooooohoooooo. Finally Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Gidday all, > > I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > > I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > > We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > > Tony > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From realtswain at clear.net.nz Mon Oct 24 19:52:00 2011 From: realtswain at clear.net.nz (Tony S) Date: Mon Oct 24 19:51:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <001801cc9219$6e6bd4a0$4b437de0$@net.nz> I agree with Graeme Wait until the FS reveal their hand. Then start the united front there. I'm sure once brigades voice their anger, the UFBA will get involved officially. They are involved already, just take a look at the web site, and have asked for copies of any submissions. I've heard of some really peeved brigades out there. Typical FS consultation, voice a proposal, call for objections/submissions, ignore them and proceed with the original plan....... Exactly what Ian reported on in a previous posting regarding the NC in waiting comments at the Wellington Provincial Conference at the weekend........ Looks like there could be trouble at mill! Tony Swain -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders Sent: Monday, 24 October 2011 6:52 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- That may be too late Graeme. Typical Fire service. > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:21:55 +1300 > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > From: graeme.booth@gmail.com > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony > > I've heard mutterings but I don't know of anyone taking direct action. > My suggestion would be to wait until the final draft is out, asses the > situation, then decide on what action needs to be taken. > > Graeme Booth > > On 24 October 2011 14:53, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Gidday all, > > > > I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > > > > I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > > > > We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > > > > Tony > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Mon Oct 24 21:22:22 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Mon Oct 24 21:22:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> Hi Tristan, > Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. T. > > >> From: tony@sutorius.org >> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Gidday all, >> >> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >> >> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >> >> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >> >> Tony >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Mon Oct 24 22:28:06 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Mon Oct 24 22:28:25 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <003a01cc922f$3e2879e0$ba796da0$@yahoo.co.nz> I agree fully with Mr Sutorius. Well said. Thanks and regards Adam Knezovic -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Monday, 24 October 2011 9:22 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Tristan, > Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. T. > > >> From: tony@sutorius.org >> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Gidday all, >> >> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >> >> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >> >> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >> >> Tony >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 09:48:53 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Tue Oct 25 09:49:09 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tristan, > > > Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? > > > Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). > > The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. > > In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. > > This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. > > T. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: tony@sutorius.org > >> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Gidday all, > >> > >> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > >> > >> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > >> > >> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > >> > >> Tony > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 13:02:56 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 13:03:03 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> Hi Tristan, Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. Tony On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. > I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. > Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. > sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> From: tony@sutorius.org >> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tristan, >> >>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >> >> >> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >> >> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >> >> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >> >> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >> >> T. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Gidday all, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>> >>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>> >>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From MRStewart at dow.com Tue Oct 25 13:09:11 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Tue Oct 25 13:09:37 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org><8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> Message-ID: All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. Mark the Lurker ? -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Tristan, Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. Tony On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. > I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. > Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. > sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> From: tony@sutorius.org >> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tristan, >> >>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >> >> >> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >> >> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >> >> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >> >> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >> >> T. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Gidday all, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>> >>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>> >>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>> >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 13:16:10 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 13:16:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> Thanks Mark. What are your concerns? T. On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. > > Mark the Lurker > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tristan, > > Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... > > The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. > > Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. > > First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. > > Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. > > Tony > > > On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. >> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. >> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. >> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? >> >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Tristan, >>> >>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >>> >>> >>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >>> >>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >>> >>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >>> >>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >>> >>> T. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Gidday all, >>>>> >>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>>> >>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>>> >>>>> Tony >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From MRStewart at dow.com Tue Oct 25 13:47:45 2011 From: MRStewart at dow.com (Stewart, Mark (MR)) Date: Tue Oct 25 13:48:11 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org><8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org><399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Loose a TO, 1/2 a FSO, H&W. large effect on the smaller brigades ? -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:16 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Mark. What are your concerns? T. On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. > > Mark the Lurker > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tristan, > > Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... > > The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. > > Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. > > First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. > > Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. > > Tony > > > On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. >> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. >> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. >> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? >> >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Tristan, >>> >>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >>> >>> >>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >>> >>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >>> >>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >>> >>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >>> >>> T. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Gidday all, >>>>> >>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>>> >>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>>> >>>>> Tony >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 15:13:12 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 15:13:17 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> Thanks Mark. So far I am aware of substantial local brigade disquiet and talk of organised opposition in three locations:- Nelson / Marlborough Far North Taranaki I would strongly urge the brigades involved in these locations to do two things: talk with us here on VollyNet about what's going on and the support you'd like to receive, and network with the brigades in the other areas on this list... you all seem to be inventing the wheel separately, and could no doubt benefit from mutual information sharing. I am happy to pass relevant information on to VollyNet if anonymity is (strongly) required, and also to privately broker contact between "activist" brigades if you haven't yet identified each other. In my view brigades would be silly to expect someone else to solve these problems for us. We're strong organisations at a local level, and we're pretty much everywhere... if we have to fight, that's the field we'd be smart to make out stand on. T. On 25/10/2011, at 13:47, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Loose a TO, 1/2 a FSO, H&W. large effect on the smaller brigades > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:16 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks Mark. > > What are your concerns? > > T. > > > On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. >> >> Mark the Lurker >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tristan, >> >> Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... >> >> The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. >> >> Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. >> >> First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. >> >> Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. >> >> Tony >> >> >> On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. >>> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. >>> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. >>> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Tristan, >>>> >>>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >>>> >>>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >>>> >>>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >>>> >>>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >>>> >>>> T. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Gidday all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Tue Oct 25 15:33:36 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Tue Oct 25 15:33:51 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Tony, ? As was the problem with the submission process though, it is very hard to know what the exact issues that may arise are, when we are prevented from seeing the final outcome before it is released, or is it expected that it will mirror the original draft before the submission process? ? Allan ________________________________ From: Tony Sutorius To: VollyNet Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Mark. So far I am aware of substantial local brigade disquiet and talk of organised opposition in three locations:- Nelson / Marlborough Far North Taranaki I would strongly urge the brigades involved in these locations to do two things: talk with us here on VollyNet about what's going on and the support you'd like to receive, and network with the brigades in the other areas on this list... you all seem to be inventing the wheel separately, and could no doubt benefit from mutual information sharing. I am happy to pass relevant information on to VollyNet if anonymity is (strongly) required, and also to privately broker contact between "activist" brigades if you haven't yet identified each other. In my view brigades would be silly to expect someone else to solve these problems for us. We're strong organisations at a local level, and we're pretty much everywhere... if we have to fight, that's the field we'd be smart to make out stand on. T. On 25/10/2011, at 13:47, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Loose a TO, 1/2 a FSO, H&W.? large effect on the smaller brigades > >? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:16 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks Mark. > > What are your concerns? > > T. > > > On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. >> >> Mark the Lurker >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tristan, >> >> Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... >> >> The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. >> >> Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. >> >> First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. >> >> Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. >> >> Tony >> >> >> On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. >>> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. >>> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. >>> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Hi Tristan, >>>> >>>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >>>> >>>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >>>> >>>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >>>> >>>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >>>> >>>> T. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>>> >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Gidday all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tony >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 15:55:17 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 15:55:22 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> Hi Allan, I think that problem can be addressed quite satisfactorily by framing your concerns in an equally non-precise way... that's not a disadvantage in a public campaign really, as the public aren't interested in becoming experts in Fire Brigade administration anyway. So, if for example your brigade can see that your paid support will be cut but exactly how has no yet been spelled out, the message you need to be putting out there might be something like this:- "We know that the Government is putting pressure on the Fire Service to make cuts, and our information suggests they are planning to do this by removing paid support staff that our volunteers rely on, expecting us to do that work for free. Our members are already protecting our communities for free, and we just can't take extra load on... it will affect our ability to remain viable and get our fire tricks out the door. We ask that the Prime Minister clearly state now that volunteer firefighters won't be expected to carry a heavier load than they already do. We want a guarantee that no volunteer firefighter support resources will be cut". If even a dozen brigades did this forcefully in their local communities during the next four weeks, and in national media when the opportunity arises, I'd suggest that's very likely all it would take. Only a supremely foolish government would take us on once we've demonstrated a willingness to fight... but that power greatly reduces come the 26th of November. Tony On 25/10/2011, at 15:33, Allan Hoult wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Tony, > > As was the problem with the submission process though, it is very hard to know what the exact issues that may arise are, when we are prevented from seeing the final outcome before it is released, or is it expected that it will mirror the original draft before the submission process? > > Allan > > > ________________________________ > From: Tony Sutorius > To: VollyNet > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks Mark. > > So far I am aware of substantial local brigade disquiet and talk of organised opposition in three locations:- > > Nelson / Marlborough > Far North > Taranaki > > I would strongly urge the brigades involved in these locations to do two things: talk with us here on VollyNet about what's going on and the support you'd like to receive, and network with the brigades in the other areas on this list... you all seem to be inventing the wheel separately, and could no doubt benefit from mutual information sharing. > > I am happy to pass relevant information on to VollyNet if anonymity is (strongly) required, and also to privately broker contact between "activist" brigades if you haven't yet identified each other. > > In my view brigades would be silly to expect someone else to solve these problems for us. We're strong organisations at a local level, and we're pretty much everywhere... if we have to fight, that's the field we'd be smart to make out stand on. > > T. > > > > > > > On 25/10/2011, at 13:47, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Loose a TO, 1/2 a FSO, H&W. large effect on the smaller brigades >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:16 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Thanks Mark. >> >> What are your concerns? >> >> T. >> >> >> On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. >>> >>> Mark the Lurker >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Tristan, >>> >>> Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... >>> >>> The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. >>> >>> Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. >>> >>> First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. >>> >>> Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: >>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. >>>> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. >>>> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. >>>> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? >>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 >>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>> >>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Hi Tristan, >>>>> >>>>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). >>>>> >>>>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. >>>>> >>>>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. >>>>> >>>>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. >>>>> >>>>> T. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 >>>>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>>>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Gidday all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>>> >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>>> >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Tue Oct 25 15:59:25 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Tue Oct 25 15:59:42 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> On 10/25/11 3:55 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > Only a supremely foolish government would take us on once we've demonstrated a willingness to fight... Is there any government which is *not* supremely foolish? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Bueller? Double points for a conservative one which doesn't have its head merrily up its collective free market rectum... -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From matt at p00le.net Tue Oct 25 16:02:57 2011 From: matt at p00le.net (Matthew Poole) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:03:08 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> You mean like the government that is telling a politician directly elected by more voters than any other politician in NZ history (that's Len Brown, for those who didn't figure it out) that his mandate is insufficient to challenge the government's preconceptions about what's best for Auckland? That government? Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. On 25/10/11 15:55, Tony Sutorius wrote: > If even a dozen brigades did this forcefully in their local > communities during the next four weeks, and in national media when > the opportunity arises, I'd suggest that's very likely all it would > take. Only a supremely foolish government would take us on once we've > demonstrated a willingness to fight... but that power greatly reduces > come the 26th of November. > -- Matthew Poole "The difference between theory and practice is that practice is much easier in theory than theory is in practice." From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 16:10:49 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:10:52 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> Message-ID: Well, I look at it this way... if you were the PM / FS Commission looking to make cuts, and volunteer brigades seem certain to meekly roll over on this as they always have... why on earth WOULDN'T you save some $$$ by shafting them? What's the downside? Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. T. On 25/10/2011, at 15:59, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 3:55 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> Only a supremely foolish government would take us on once we've demonstrated a willingness to fight... > > Is there any government which is *not* supremely foolish? Bueller? > Bueller? Anyone? Bueller? > > Double points for a conservative one which doesn't have its head merrily > up its collective free market rectum... > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Tue Oct 25 16:12:35 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:12:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> Message-ID: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. Spot the cynic, eh? All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not try). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Tue Oct 25 16:16:07 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:16:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org> On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 16:23:41 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:23:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org> Message-ID: <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> Oh, I completely agree it'd be a terrible idea to align with any political figure. There's various ethical reasons, but a purely practical one is that you can always be assured that anyone you nail your colours to will not stay in power forever... then you're screwed. This, in my humble opinion, is something the NZPFU should have thought through more carefully. T. On 25/10/2011, at 16:16, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > >> Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. > > Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades > we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a > collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or > figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire > on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your > strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the > town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Tue Oct 25 16:39:43 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:40:00 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org> <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Think? The NZPFU? but that would get in the way of thumping tables and rabble rousing. Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 25, 2011 4:24 PM, "Tony Sutorius" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Oh, I completely agree it'd be a terrible idea to align with any political > figure. > > There's various ethical reasons, but a purely practical one is that you can > always be assured that anyone you nail your colours to will not stay in > power forever... then you're screwed. > > This, in my humble opinion, is something the NZPFU should have thought > through more carefully. > > T. > > > On 25/10/2011, at 16:16, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost > popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire > brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. > > > > Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades > > we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a > > collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or > > figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire > > on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your > > strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the > > town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From mike at firepumps.co.nz Tue Oct 25 16:58:54 2011 From: mike at firepumps.co.nz (Mike Harrison) Date: Tue Oct 25 16:59:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org><8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org><399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org><37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org><79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org><1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org><4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org><4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org><0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> Message-ID: Firstly we should wait and see what the final outcome is from NZFS. secondly we should wait and see what is in the final submission from the UFBA. It will no doubt be a hot topic with plenty of discussion at the UFBA conference next month. a point to think about is that some of the personnel who are losing jobs are NZPFU members so any action we feel like taking will benefit the NZPFU directly. A unified approach my be in order. Cheers Mike -----Original Message----- From: Ben Kepes Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:39 PM To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Think? The NZPFU? but that would get in the way of thumping tables and rabble rousing. Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 25, 2011 4:24 PM, "Tony Sutorius" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Oh, I completely agree it'd be a terrible idea to align with any political > figure. > > There's various ethical reasons, but a purely practical one is that you > can > always be assured that anyone you nail your colours to will not stay in > power forever... then you're screwed. > > This, in my humble opinion, is something the NZPFU should have thought > through more carefully. > > T. > > > On 25/10/2011, at 16:16, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost > popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire > brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. > > > > Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades > > we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a > > collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or > > figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire > > on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your > > strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the > > town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:46:57 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Tue Oct 25 17:47:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> Message-ID: As has been said before, after the next draft (final draft which practically means implimented) is too late! It would be easier to call things off last minute, than try and get that ball rolling again.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:13:12 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks Mark. > > So far I am aware of substantial local brigade disquiet and talk of organised opposition in three locations:- > > Nelson / Marlborough > Far North > Taranaki > > I would strongly urge the brigades involved in these locations to do two things: talk with us here on VollyNet about what's going on and the support you'd like to receive, and network with the brigades in the other areas on this list... you all seem to be inventing the wheel separately, and could no doubt benefit from mutual information sharing. > > I am happy to pass relevant information on to VollyNet if anonymity is (strongly) required, and also to privately broker contact between "activist" brigades if you haven't yet identified each other. > > In my view brigades would be silly to expect someone else to solve these problems for us. We're strong organisations at a local level, and we're pretty much everywhere... if we have to fight, that's the field we'd be smart to make out stand on. > > T. > > > > > > > On 25/10/2011, at 13:47, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Loose a TO, 1/2 a FSO, H&W. large effect on the smaller brigades > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:16 p.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks Mark. > > > > What are your concerns? > > > > T. > > > > > > On 25/10/2011, at 13:09, "Stewart, Mark (MR)" wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> All the naki chiefs and deputies have meet to discuss, have meet with area manager and regional manager, and have outline all concerns and what we can do if we are still not happy. > >> > >> Mark the Lurker > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 1:03 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tristan, > >> > >> Hanging around with politicians as my work often requires, one cannot help but have a bit of the smell rub off... > >> > >> The next four weeks offer an absolutely spectacular opportunity for volunteer fire brigades to have extraordinary political influence. Send someone along to every local "meet-the-candidates" meeting, stand up and say you are afraid you are about to face damaging cutbacks, and ask all politicians present to publicly declare their position. It'd be a brave local candidate that produced a middle finger or equivocated, and this would also be happening in front of all your local community leaders and media. > >> > >> Some suggest it is best to wait until the plan is definite. I suggest this is very definitely NOT correct, for two reasons. > >> > >> First, as explained above, the next four weeks are a time of greatly exaggerated political sensitivity at local and national level; now is a time when any individual brigade definitely WILL have a local impact if they are willing to speak up. Equally importantly it'll show politicians that there will be a price to pay in every little community across the country if they attack volunteer fire brigades in the future. > >> > >> Second, if the political pressure works, it will be far, far easier (and so far more likely) for the government and the NZFS to back away from cuts they may be planning BEFORE these are officially announced as firm plans. That way they can simply change the plan before it is published and claim the cuts were never their intention; no public victory for us in that outcome, but that's fine; everyone wins. > >> > >> Tony > >> > >> > >> On 25/10/2011, at 9:48, Tristan Saunders wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Well for one, that shows the problem with having the UFBA so dependant on the NZFS for its operations, as has been discussed here before. Maybe moves should be made to introduce within the agreements of service to have that money dished out to brigades, for example within their grants, and increase the subscriptions. > >>> I dont believe that individual brigades have that power. one or two brigades not doing their sms (which is probably happening anyway) isnt really going to swing the head honchos opinions. And refusing training is only going to effect the brigades standards and futures. Unsure how AM's are responsible for these areas or if they receive performance reviews based on these things.. There are no employment implications regarding these actions, and no contract deadlines either. > >>> Maybe it is time for a more volly union entity. But when all the agreements are between the NZFS-UFBA-Brigade this isnt much of an option without major changes.. > >>> sounds like a good future for vollynet...!? need a capacity increase? > >>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> From: tony@sutorius.org > >>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:22:22 +1300 > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Hi Tristan, > >>>> > >>>>> Isnt this the job of the UFBA Tony..? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Well, actually I'd say in the first instance it's a job for individual brigades, if things were to deteriorate into a serious dispute... we're the ones with the "industrial" power after all, if that lever ever needs to be pulled (and personally I sincerely hope it does not). > >>>> > >>>> The UFBA might assume an active role in that scenario, or for various reasons may not... it is for example rather vulnerable financially to a hypothetically vindictive Fire Service nowadays. > >>>> > >>>> In my view, the obvious first thing to do in the event of serious unhappiness is for brigades to talk with EACH OTHER... we need to become informed, and see if a consensus towards action emerges. If the UFBA were then to act as our "union", their first action will be to call for proposals for action from the membership, and put those to a vote. > >>>> > >>>> This after all is what the NZPFU does, and are doing now. It seems to me there is a risk that, should our own response be much mellower and more "diplomatic" than theirs, we become a much more appealing target than they are for easy cuts that the NZFS know won't hurt them in the public eye. > >>>> > >>>> T. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: tony@sutorius.org > >>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:53:45 +1300 > >>>>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>>>> Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>>>> > >>>>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >>>>>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> Gidday all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've been hearing scattered reports of volunteer protest action against support cutbacks and/or restructuring issues happening around the country, but don't have a clear picture. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'd like to appeal to VollyNetters from those brigades, or with connections to them, to please post about it here so we all know what's going on. If you're unable to post directly, email me and I'll pass it on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We can support each other and be strong together, but only if we all know what's going on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>>> > >>>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 25 17:51:05 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Tue Oct 25 17:51:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org>, , <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org>, <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> Message-ID: plus, and i expect a reminder isnt far away, that it is against policy to have involve yourself in any aligning in association with your uniform.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:23:41 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Oh, I completely agree it'd be a terrible idea to align with any political figure. > > There's various ethical reasons, but a purely practical one is that you can always be assured that anyone you nail your colours to will not stay in power forever... then you're screwed. > > This, in my humble opinion, is something the NZPFU should have thought through more carefully. > > T. > > > On 25/10/2011, at 16:16, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > > > >> Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. > > > > Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades > > we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a > > collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or > > figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire > > on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your > > strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the > > town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 22:28:21 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 22:28:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA6260D.8090405@hintz.org> <4EA629F7.7040001@hintz.org> <0A362F90-698F-4DFB-9D61-83AC08B16268@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <436B17D1-E3C4-436C-ABF0-98972A57826C@sutorius.org> Gidday Mike, Sounds like an awful lot of waiting and seeing mate. Wait and see how the cuts are distributed if the career staff are fighting a political campaign while we're busy waiting and seeing...! T. On 25/10/2011, at 16:58, "Mike Harrison" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Firstly we should wait and see what the final outcome is from NZFS. > secondly we should wait and see what is in the final submission from the UFBA. > It will no doubt be a hot topic with plenty of discussion at the UFBA conference next month. > a point to think about is that some of the personnel who are losing jobs are NZPFU members so any action we feel like taking will benefit the NZPFU directly. A unified approach my be in order. > > Cheers > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- From: Ben Kepes > Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:39 PM > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Think? The NZPFU? but that would get in the way of thumping tables and > rabble rousing. > > > > Sent from mobile. Expect typos > On Oct 25, 2011 4:24 PM, "Tony Sutorius" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Oh, I completely agree it'd be a terrible idea to align with any political >> figure. >> >> There's various ethical reasons, but a purely practical one is that you can >> always be assured that anyone you nail your colours to will not stay in >> power forever... then you're screwed. >> >> This, in my humble opinion, is something the NZPFU should have thought >> through more carefully. >> >> T. >> >> >> On 25/10/2011, at 16:16, Edmund Hintz wrote: >> >> > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > On 10/25/11 4:10 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: >> > >> >> Politicians don't care about us, but they will always respect the lost >> popularity that articulate, strong self-assertion from volunteer fire >> brigades could cost them in communities right across the country. >> > >> > Indeed. Tho an interesting tightrope to walk. I suspect as brigades >> > we'll want to maintain some level of neutrality. I think a brigade (or a >> > collection thereof) coming out strongly in favor of a political party or >> > figure could be a somewhat risky slippery slope (and could even backfire >> > on us, particularly our exceedingly positive public image). But your >> > strategy of simply putting it out there in front of the voters at the >> > town hall meetings would possibly have a pretty good effect. >> > >> > -- >> > Regards, >> > >> > Ed Hintz >> > ed@hintz.org >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> > >> > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Tue Oct 25 22:35:48 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Tue Oct 25 22:36:05 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <001801cc9219$6e6bd4a0$4b437de0$@net.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <001801cc9219$6e6bd4a0$4b437de0$@net.nz> Message-ID: <1319535348.4270.23.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. My list: Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. Geoff From tony at sutorius.org Tue Oct 25 22:44:08 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Tue Oct 25 22:44:13 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319535348.4270.23.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <001801cc9219$6e6bd4a0$4b437de0$@net.nz> <1319535348.4270.23.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: "We ask that the [insert politician] clearly state now that volunteer firefighters won't be expected to carry a heavier load than they already do. We want a guarantee that no volunteer firefighter support resources will be cut" T. On 25/10/2011, at 22:35, Marks Family wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear > with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area > on Monday for a festival we were holding. > My list: > Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old > mercs? > Why are we not funded for medical call outs? > Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government > thinking? > Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just > by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? > Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? > Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? > You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could > look like wingeing. > Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion > is the way to go. > > Geoff > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz Wed Oct 26 09:10:11 2011 From: Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz (Paul Butler) Date: Wed Oct 26 09:10:25 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> Message-ID: Do or do not. There is no try... -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. Spot the cynic, eh? All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not try). -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 10:27:23 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:27:39 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS Message-ID: Hey all Just doing a post about that abomination which is the NZFS IT system - from citrix access to SMS itself, from webmail to locked down PCs, NZFS IT is a perfect case study of IT done badly. Specific things I'm mentioning include - a user interface that is eye wateringly bad - no support for any web browsers that people actually want to use - no ability to (shock horror) actually install useful applications on station PCs - an OSM system that makes people utterly hate complying with the system Keen to hear any other horror stories - it seems to me that NZFS IT is where those who have been shamed in real IT roles go to make user's lives a misery thoughts? b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Oct 26 10:33:46 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:34:04 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> On 26/10/11 10:27, Ben Kepes wrote: > - no ability to (shock horror) actually install useful applications on > station PCs > I'd like to point out that this is absolutely the norm for any large corporation with a COE desktop environment. Perhaps even more true with a thin-client environment (being that many apps aren't tested/suitable for use on a remote desktop). Not saying it's not a good idea to offer feedback, but ensure your position is reasonable; no crown entity i'm aware of will provide the means for end-users to install their own apps arbitrarily when you're simultaneously expecting the network to house and protect data that can be classified as SENSITIVE or IN-CONFIDENCE. Let's not even talk about the possibility of NZFS being able to manage RESTRICTED material to the same level of (say) NZ Police... I'd settle for a usable and navigable website and portal, and support for open standards that let Vollys VPN in from their personal systems and get their work done. Must... resist... urge... to... rant... Mark. From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 10:39:16 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:39:30 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> Message-ID: Hey Mark, thanks So... I can accept that we shouldn't be able to install crap-ware on corp build machines but not having up to date browsers or applications is a serious productivity barrier. Add to that the fact that station machines are locked down to citrix access of the web and you have people unable to actually do what hey need to do. Our brigade is in the sticks and having to access the web via NHQ and citrix makes it almost unusable re navigation - he website is a complete abomination, I can't seem to be able to actually get my NZFS email on any evice or system that I'd actually want to use and accessing via the portal.fire.org.nz address is crappity crap rant away.... in fact feel free to add to my post... b > > > > I'd settle for a usable and navigable website and portal, and support > for open standards that let Vollys VPN in from their personal systems > and get their work done. > > Must... resist... urge... to... rant... > > Mark. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Wed Oct 26 10:48:27 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:48:36 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> Message-ID: <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> On 10/26/11 10:39 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > re navigation - he website is a complete abomination, I can't seem to be > able to actually get my NZFS email on any evice or system that I'd actually > want to use and accessing via the portal.fire.org.nz address is crappity > crap Given our financial issues, it seems to me we'd have been far better off sticking with the old clunky system rather than cheerfully giving Gen-i or whomever X-million dollars to give us a shiny-new-whiz-bang (ooooh! Silverlight!) clunky system. That's a good few VSO salaries right there. Maybe even a payraise for the permies. Woulda coulda shoulda. Guess that's why I'm ops mgr for a fairly small network provider rather than CEO for a big national. I just don't have the vision it takes to blow stupid large amounts of money on crap IT. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 10:57:01 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:57:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> Message-ID: i wonder what that horror of a system cost them (us) sigh b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/26/11 10:39 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > re navigation - he website is a complete abomination, I can't seem to be > > able to actually get my NZFS email on any evice or system that I'd > actually > > want to use and accessing via the portal.fire.org.nz address is crappity > > crap > > Given our financial issues, it seems to me we'd have been far better off > sticking with the old clunky system rather than cheerfully giving Gen-i > or whomever X-million dollars to give us a shiny-new-whiz-bang (ooooh! > Silverlight!) clunky system. That's a good few VSO salaries right there. > Maybe even a payraise for the permies. > > Woulda coulda shoulda. Guess that's why I'm ops mgr for a fairly small > network provider rather than CEO for a big national. I just don't have > the vision it takes to blow stupid large amounts of money on crap IT. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tds_4 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 26 10:58:08 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Wed Oct 26 10:58:22 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: one word Firenet Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back the bookshelf and region pages. > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:27:23 -0700 > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz; sjackmans@gmail.com > CC: > Subject: [VollyNet] SMS > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hey all > > Just doing a post about that abomination which is the NZFS IT system - from > citrix access to SMS itself, from webmail to locked down PCs, NZFS IT is a > perfect case study of IT done badly. > > Specific things I'm mentioning include > > - a user interface that is eye wateringly bad > - no support for any web browsers that people actually want to use > - no ability to (shock horror) actually install useful applications on > station PCs > - an OSM system that makes people utterly hate complying with the system > > Keen to hear any other horror stories - it seems to me that NZFS IT is where > those who have been shamed in real IT roles go to make user's lives a misery > > thoughts? > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:02:01 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Wed Oct 26 11:02:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: , <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net>, , <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org>, Message-ID: it was mentioned in one of the fire rescues i think. Over a million anyway. > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:57:01 -0700 > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] SMS > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > i wonder what that horror of a system cost them (us) > > sigh > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/26/11 10:39 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > > > re navigation - he website is a complete abomination, I can't seem to be > > > able to actually get my NZFS email on any evice or system that I'd > > actually > > > want to use and accessing via the portal.fire.org.nz address is crappity > > > crap > > > > Given our financial issues, it seems to me we'd have been far better off > > sticking with the old clunky system rather than cheerfully giving Gen-i > > or whomever X-million dollars to give us a shiny-new-whiz-bang (ooooh! > > Silverlight!) clunky system. That's a good few VSO salaries right there. > > Maybe even a payraise for the permies. > > > > Woulda coulda shoulda. Guess that's why I'm ops mgr for a fairly small > > network provider rather than CEO for a big national. I just don't have > > the vision it takes to blow stupid large amounts of money on crap IT. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Ed Hintz > > ed@hintz.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 11:03:54 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 11:04:07 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> Message-ID: unbelievable I know some folks (drupal anyone?) who could create a compliant system that actually worked cross platform and browser for a fraction of that sigh b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > it was mentioned in one of the fire rescues i think. Over a million anyway. > > > Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:57:01 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] SMS > > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > i wonder what that horror of a system cost them (us) > > > > sigh > > > > b > > > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On 10/26/11 10:39 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > > > > > re navigation - he website is a complete abomination, I can't seem to > be > > > > able to actually get my NZFS email on any evice or system that I'd > > > actually > > > > want to use and accessing via the portal.fire.org.nz address is > crappity > > > > crap > > > > > > Given our financial issues, it seems to me we'd have been far better > off > > > sticking with the old clunky system rather than cheerfully giving Gen-i > > > or whomever X-million dollars to give us a shiny-new-whiz-bang (ooooh! > > > Silverlight!) clunky system. That's a good few VSO salaries right > there. > > > Maybe even a payraise for the permies. > > > > > > Woulda coulda shoulda. Guess that's why I'm ops mgr for a fairly small > > > network provider rather than CEO for a big national. I just don't have > > > the vision it takes to blow stupid large amounts of money on crap IT. > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ed Hintz > > > ed@hintz.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From ed at hintz.org Wed Oct 26 11:12:44 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Wed Oct 26 11:12:57 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EA7345C.2050909@hintz.org> On 10/26/11 11:03 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > I know some folks (drupal anyone?) who could create a compliant system that > actually worked cross platform and browser for a fraction of that Drupal is open source, and OSS is only used by shaggy hippies and godless terrorists. Proper corporate IT requires a supplier that you can sue (never mind that they have far deeper pockets than you and will outlast any legal battle OOH! SQUIRREL!). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 11:15:30 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 11:15:44 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <4EA7345C.2050909@hintz.org> References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> <4EA7345C.2050909@hintz.org> Message-ID: LMFAO Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/26/11 11:03 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > > > I know some folks (drupal anyone?) who could create a compliant system > that > > actually worked cross platform and browser for a fraction of that > > Drupal is open source, and OSS is only used by shaggy hippies and > godless terrorists. Proper corporate IT requires a supplier that you can > sue (never mind that they have far deeper pockets than you and will > outlast any legal battle OOH! SQUIRREL!). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz Wed Oct 26 14:13:10 2011 From: Paul.Butler at rbnz.govt.nz (Paul Butler) Date: Wed Oct 26 14:20:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yup - definitely go for the "Alternative Menu" button(?) It stops my brain from screaming -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 10:58 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- one word Firenet Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back the bookshelf and region pages. ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** From stantonfield at clear.net.nz Wed Oct 26 16:44:35 2011 From: stantonfield at clear.net.nz (stantonfield) Date: Wed Oct 26 16:44:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> Many believe a blackhole is a portal to another universe... since the System upgrade(sic), the portal appears at times like a slow trip inside a blackhole. I agree the "alternative menu" button is an escape from eternal brain screaming. Although like the Delorean time machine, you also have to get to 88 miles per hour to initiate the flux capacitor to make the most it. ;-) Si ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Butler" To: "'VollyNet'" Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:13 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yup - definitely go for the "Alternative Menu" button(?) It stops my brain from screaming -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tristan Saunders Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 10:58 a.m. To: VollyNet Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- one word Firenet Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back the bookshelf and region pages. ****************************************************************************** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." ****************************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 16:53:19 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 16:53:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> References: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> Message-ID: That man is on drugs. Must be a Cust thing! But yeah blackhole is an apt moniker.... Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 26, 2011 4:45 PM, "stantonfield" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > Many believe a blackhole is a portal to another universe... since the > System upgrade(sic), the portal appears at times like a slow trip inside a > blackhole. > I agree the "alternative menu" button is an escape from eternal brain > screaming. > Although like the Delorean time machine, you also have to get to 88 miles > per hour to initiate the flux capacitor to make the most it. ;-) > Si > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Butler" > > To: "'VollyNet'" > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:13 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > Yup - definitely go for the "Alternative Menu" button(?) > It stops my brain from screaming > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.**nz[mailto: > vollynet-bounces@**vollynet.org.nz ] On > Behalf Of Tristan Saunders > Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 10:58 a.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > one word > > Firenet > > Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back the > bookshelf and region pages. > > > > **************************************************************** > ****************** > "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and > may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the > Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about > the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > **************************************************************** > ****************** > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > -------------------- > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 > 18:34:00 > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From stantonfield at clear.net.nz Wed Oct 26 17:10:48 2011 From: stantonfield at clear.net.nz (stantonfield) Date: Wed Oct 26 17:11:31 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> Message-ID: <76C9579883A6478C8CADA859D439BDD9@stantonfieldPC> Its a rule of mine that I dont engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person ..;-) lol. Ben knowing this is your specialist field, what is your ideal to make the whole thing a lot more userfriendly and efficient? Si ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Kepes" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] SMS > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > That man is on drugs. Must be a Cust thing! But yeah blackhole is an apt > moniker.... > > Sent from mobile. Expect typos > On Oct 26, 2011 4:45 PM, "stantonfield" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> Many believe a blackhole is a portal to another universe... since the >> System upgrade(sic), the portal appears at times like a slow trip inside >> a >> blackhole. >> I agree the "alternative menu" button is an escape from eternal brain >> screaming. >> Although like the Delorean time machine, you also have to get to 88 miles >> per hour to initiate the flux capacitor to make the most it. ;-) >> Si >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Butler" >> > > >> To: "'VollyNet'" >> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:13 PM >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS >> >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> Yup - definitely go for the "Alternative Menu" button(?) >> It stops my brain from screaming >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: >> vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.**nz[mailto: >> vollynet-bounces@**vollynet.org.nz ] On >> Behalf Of Tristan Saunders >> Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 10:58 a.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> one word >> >> Firenet >> >> Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back >> the >> bookshelf and region pages. >> >> >> >> **************************************************************** >> ****************** >> "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and >> may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please >> notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. >> >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the >> Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about >> the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >> **************************************************************** >> ****************** >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> -------------------- >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 >> 18:34:00 >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 18:34:00 From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 17:21:41 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 17:22:00 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <76C9579883A6478C8CADA859D439BDD9@stantonfieldPC> References: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> <76C9579883A6478C8CADA859D439BDD9@stantonfieldPC> Message-ID: 1) let people install application's so they can use the stuff that works for them (chrome browser for example) 2) instead of trying to create a one size fits all portal, take the approach of allowing users to create their own dashboards with the information (both internal and external) that is useful to them (for me that'd be email, Cosmo status and SMS maybe). Look at the myairnz.co.nz site for an example. 3) allow everything to become a "widget" so that, for example, I can have a little box on my desktop with osm alerts on it 4) give up on butt-ugly icons that make users feel that corporate IT thinks we're all special needs 5) stop forcing users to connect via slow and locked down fat clients (that's the Citrix login on station PCs). But rather make the SMS site simply a password protected website that one van access from station machines connected to standard DSL links 6) overall move away from a paradigm of "IT control" to one of "IT enablement" That'd be $2k at my normal consulting rates, gratis to the service we pit untold energy into and would like to see even better B Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 26, 2011 5:12 PM, "stantonfield" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > Its a rule of mine that I dont engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed > person ..;-) > lol. > Ben knowing this is your specialist field, what is your ideal to make the > whole thing a lot more userfriendly and efficient? > Si > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Kepes" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] SMS > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> That man is on drugs. Must be a Cust thing! But yeah blackhole is an apt >> moniker.... >> >> Sent from mobile. Expect typos >> On Oct 26, 2011 4:45 PM, "stantonfield" >> wrote: >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**---- >>> Many believe a blackhole is a portal to another universe... since the >>> System upgrade(sic), the portal appears at times like a slow trip inside >>> a >>> blackhole. >>> I agree the "alternative menu" button is an escape from eternal brain >>> screaming. >>> Although like the Delorean time machine, you also have to get to 88 miles >>> per hour to initiate the flux capacitor to make the most it. ;-) >>> Si >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Butler" < >>> Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>> > >>> To: "'VollyNet'" >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:13 PM >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS >>> >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**---- >>> Yup - definitely go for the "Alternative Menu" button(?) >>> It stops my brain from screaming >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.****nz>> vollynet.org.nz >[mailto: >>> vollynet-bounces@**vollynet.**org.nz < >>> vollynet-bounces@vollynet.**org.nz >] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Tristan Saunders >>> Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 10:58 a.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] SMS >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >>> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**---- >>> one word >>> >>> Firenet >>> >>> Big flash home page, one click and BAM, bullet point lists. Bring back >>> the >>> bookshelf and region pages. >>> >>> >>> >>> ******************************************************************** >>> ****************** >>> "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and >>> may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please >>> notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. >>> >>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the >>> Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about >>> the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>> ******************************************************************** >>> ****************** >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**---- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--** >>> -------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 >>> 18:34:00 >>> >>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**---- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >>> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > -------------------- > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3125 - Release Date: 09/09/10 > 18:34:00 > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From tony at sutorius.org Wed Oct 26 18:03:21 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Wed Oct 26 18:03:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <4EA7345C.2050909@hintz.org> References: <4EA72B3A.9060004@blakjak.net> <4EA72EAB.9060507@hintz.org> <4EA7345C.2050909@hintz.org> Message-ID: <06241988-4719-4F8A-BF39-93D6BAA8E170@sutorius.org> Hey, you guys have very solid professional credentials backing up your views (apart from the rodent-fancying I assume)... why not join forces and write an issues & strategy 3-pager for the new CEO? Yet another voluntary effort, but one that could make an important difference. It often strikes me that the Fire Service have professional expertise amongst their volunteers that must far exceed what they have in-house in all sorts of areas. It's a pity they don't think to ask us; but nothing's stopping us providing unsolicited input! T. On 26/10/2011, at 11:12, Edmund Hintz wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/26/11 11:03 AM, Ben Kepes wrote: > >> I know some folks (drupal anyone?) who could create a compliant system that >> actually worked cross platform and browser for a fraction of that > > Drupal is open source, and OSS is only used by shaggy hippies and > godless terrorists. Proper corporate IT requires a supplier that you can > sue (never mind that they have far deeper pockets than you and will > outlast any legal battle OOH! SQUIRREL!). > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz Wed Oct 26 18:41:11 2011 From: agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz (Secret Agent) Date: Wed Oct 26 18:41:24 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action Message-ID: <1319607671.13174.YahooMailNeo@web124709.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. ? Regarding budget and cutbacks. The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. $203 Million goes to the NZFS $97 Million goes to the NRFA ? NZFS Has approx 440 paid and vol stations Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum Has the structure and management Has the system, policies and procedures etc Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc ? NRFA Has no stations but there are 187 VRFF's. No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's ? What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? ? Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. ? Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. ? Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. ? I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. ? Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. ? Or am I the only one who sees this? ? Love to hear your comments. ? thanks ? Secret Agent 25. ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. My list: Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. ? Geoff ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Oct 26 18:42:45 2011 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Oct 26 18:42:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: References: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> <76C9579883A6478C8CADA859D439BDD9@stantonfieldPC> Message-ID: <4EA79DD5.6040002@blakjak.net> On 26/10/11 17:21, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > 1) let people install application's so they can use the stuff that works for > them (chrome browser for example) IMHO unlikely to happen. Users don't get the rights to install software of their own in a secure IT environment. However I'd happily endorse steps such as: - Shipping a browser alternative to Internet Explorer - Shipping updates to all Internet-facing apps (Browsers being the most obvious) to ensure they're current & secured with best practises. If there's something your locked-down machine can't do, that you need for legitimate purposes, raise a request through channels. > > 2) instead of trying to create a one size fits all portal, take the approach > of allowing users to create their own dashboards with the information (both > internal and external) that is useful to them (for me that'd be email, Cosmo > status and SMS maybe). Look at the myairnz.co.nz site for an example. AirNZ's interesting, but also an annoying flash site. User-customizations dont' need to be complex and OTT like that, if users can get to their key apps quickly. The way apps are accessed within Firenet at the moment leaves a bit to be desired, is my opinion. > > 5) stop forcing users to connect via slow and locked down fat clients > (that's the Citrix login on station PCs). But rather make the SMS site > simply a password protected website that one van access from station > machines connected to standard DSL links Not quite sure what you mean by this. SMS is currently a web app delivered regardless of the terminal you use? > > 6) overall move away from a paradigm of "IT control" to one of "IT > enablement" Um... this is a bit fluffy. Know of any 10,000 employee organisations outside of the IT industry who've done this successfully? > That'd be $2k at my normal consulting rates, gratis to the service we pit > untold energy into and would like to see even better > > The most frustrating part for me was having NZFS solicit feedback from the wider organisation and then ignore that feedback. I'm still stick with having to view the source code and pull together URL's for Regional and National notices due to their method of embedding PDF's into web pages that only seems to work on Windows based computers. Oh and Silverlight is out of the question, in effect. My feedback for them would be simple. Adopt open-standards. Pay more than Lip-Service to E-Government guidelines. Adopt open-standards. Recognise that the vast majority of NZFS Portal Users are Volunteers frequently accessing the resources from outside of their corporate LAN (eg, on our own computers) and as such making a decision like 'we're going to support the infrastructure that we field' is shortsighted. Adopt open-standards. Recognise that Volunteers are contributing vast amounts of unpaid labour for the benefit of their local community and also the NZFS at large, and in return they deserve some support and consideration. Adopt open-standards. I'm a big fan of Open Source Software and Freedom across the board, but I have also spent several years in government service so I see both sides of the fence. Ben's demands fall on the idealistic side of realism, IMHO, though they probably need to be heard. Personally I'd like to think that what i'm asking for is both reasonable and achievable within the legislative and policy-related frameworks that I assume NZFS is bound by, whilst perhaps a little less extreme.... The E-Government guidelines[1] have been in place for years, and make some pretty reasonable recommendations. They'd be an excellent place to start. All personal opinion of course. Mark. [1] http://ict.govt.nz/, http://webstandards.govt.nz/ and in particular statements from http://webstandards.govt.nz/applications-and-accessible-alternatives/ such as "client side scripting, Flash, etc /may be used but not relied on/ for content or service delivery." or from say http://webstandards.govt.nz/new-zealand-specific-requirements/ where it states "If you publish content in formats other than HTML, it must be published in at least two formats, ONE of which, must be accessible. Well-constructed Word documents or RTF are examples of accessible formats." and " All new or significantly redeveloped websites must be tested against all browser and operating system combinations identified as A grade by Yahoo! Graded Browser Support . Agencies must also test against at least one browser not graded A, on a platform of their choice. Agencies might choose a non-A grade browser by considering their website statistics." From ben at diversity.net.nz Wed Oct 26 18:56:39 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Wed Oct 26 18:56:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] SMS In-Reply-To: <4EA79DD5.6040002@blakjak.net> References: <74D9A5D9F1AF4ED4AF0351C2F30298F5@stantonfieldPC> <76C9579883A6478C8CADA859D439BDD9@stantonfieldPC> <4EA79DD5.6040002@blakjak.net> Message-ID: Mark Want to collaborate on a discussion document for the incoming CEO? I'm up for it B Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 26, 2011 6:43 PM, "Mark Foster" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 26/10/11 17:21, Ben Kepes wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > 1) let people install application's so they can use the stuff that works > for > > them (chrome browser for example) > > IMHO unlikely to happen. Users don't get the rights to install software > of their own in a secure IT environment. > However I'd happily endorse steps such as: > - Shipping a browser alternative to Internet Explorer > - Shipping updates to all Internet-facing apps (Browsers being the most > obvious) to ensure they're current & secured with best practises. > > If there's something your locked-down machine can't do, that you need > for legitimate purposes, raise a request through channels. > > > > > 2) instead of trying to create a one size fits all portal, take the > approach > > of allowing users to create their own dashboards with the information > (both > > internal and external) that is useful to them (for me that'd be email, > Cosmo > > status and SMS maybe). Look at the myairnz.co.nz site for an example. > > AirNZ's interesting, but also an annoying flash site. > User-customizations dont' need to be complex and OTT like that, if users > can get to their key apps quickly. The way apps are accessed within > Firenet at the moment leaves a bit to be desired, is my opinion. > > > > > > 5) stop forcing users to connect via slow and locked down fat clients > > (that's the Citrix login on station PCs). But rather make the SMS site > > simply a password protected website that one van access from station > > machines connected to standard DSL links > > Not quite sure what you mean by this. SMS is currently a web app > delivered regardless of the terminal you use? > > > > > 6) overall move away from a paradigm of "IT control" to one of "IT > > enablement" > > Um... this is a bit fluffy. Know of any 10,000 employee organisations > outside of the IT industry who've done this successfully? > > > That'd be $2k at my normal consulting rates, gratis to the service we pit > > untold energy into and would like to see even better > > > > > > The most frustrating part for me was having NZFS solicit feedback from > the wider organisation and then ignore that feedback. > I'm still stick with having to view the source code and pull together > URL's for Regional and National notices due to their method of embedding > PDF's into web pages that only seems to work on Windows based > computers. Oh and Silverlight is out of the question, in effect. > > My feedback for them would be simple. > > Adopt open-standards. > Pay more than Lip-Service to E-Government guidelines. > Adopt open-standards. > Recognise that the vast majority of NZFS Portal Users are Volunteers > frequently accessing the resources from outside of their corporate LAN > (eg, on our own computers) and as such making a decision like 'we're > going to support the infrastructure that we field' is shortsighted. > Adopt open-standards. > Recognise that Volunteers are contributing vast amounts of unpaid labour > for the benefit of their local community and also the NZFS at large, and > in return they deserve some support and consideration. > Adopt open-standards. > > I'm a big fan of Open Source Software and Freedom across the board, but > I have also spent several years in government service so I see both > sides of the fence. Ben's demands fall on the idealistic side of > realism, IMHO, though they probably need to be heard. > Personally I'd like to think that what i'm asking for is both reasonable > and achievable within the legislative and policy-related frameworks that > I assume NZFS is bound by, whilst perhaps a little less extreme.... The > E-Government guidelines[1] have been in place for years, and make some > pretty reasonable recommendations. They'd be an excellent place to start. > > All personal opinion of course. > > Mark. > > [1] http://ict.govt.nz/, http://webstandards.govt.nz/ and in particular > statements from > http://webstandards.govt.nz/applications-and-accessible-alternatives/ > such as "client side scripting, Flash, etc /may be used but not relied > on/ for content or service delivery." > > or from say > http://webstandards.govt.nz/new-zealand-specific-requirements/ where it > states "If you publish content in formats other than HTML, it must be > published in at least two formats, ONE of which, must be accessible. > Well-constructed Word documents or RTF are examples of accessible > formats." and " All new or significantly redeveloped websites must be > tested against all browser and operating system combinations identified > as A grade by Yahoo! Graded Browser Support > . Agencies must also test > against at least one browser not graded A, on a platform of their > choice. Agencies might choose a non-A grade browser by considering their > website statistics." > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 15:16:34 2011 From: agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz (Secret Agent) Date: Thu Oct 27 15:16:50 2011 Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319607671.13174.YahooMailNeo@web124709.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1319607671.13174.YahooMailNeo@web124709.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319681794.99221.YahooMailNeo@web124701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Actually I stuffed up, that's a saving of $59,600,000 a year/per annum. Not $57,600,000. ? And no one has any comments?? Sheese...... that's really wierd! Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Secret Agent To: "vollynet@vollynet.org.nz" Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. ? Regarding budget and cutbacks. The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. $203 Million goes to the NZFS $97 Million goes to the NRFA ? NZFS Has approx 440 paid and vol stations Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum Has the structure and management Has the system, policies and procedures etc Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc ? NRFA Has no stations but there are 187 VRFF's. No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's ? What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? ? Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. ? Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. ? Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. ? I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. ? Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. ? Or am I the only one who sees this? ? Love to hear your comments. ? thanks ? Secret Agent 25. ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. My list: Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. ? Geoff ? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From E.Speck at irl.cri.nz Thu Oct 27 15:50:46 2011 From: E.Speck at irl.cri.nz (Erich Speck) Date: Thu Oct 27 15:51:02 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319681794.99221.YahooMailNeo@web124701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Probably the reason there are no replies is because you are operating as a Secret Agent Eric Speck -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Secret Agent Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:17 pm To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Actually I stuffed up, that's a saving of $59,600,000 a year/per annum. Not $57,600,000. And no one has any comments?? Sheese...... that's really wierd! Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Secret Agent To: "vollynet@vollynet.org.nz" Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. Regarding budget and cutbacks. The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. $203 Million goes to the NZFS $97 Million goes to the NRFA NZFS Has approx 440 paid and vol stations Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum Has the structure and management Has the system, policies and procedures etc Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc NRFA Has no stations but there are 187 VRFF's. No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. Or am I the only one who sees this? Love to hear your comments. thanks Secret Agent 25. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. My list: Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 15:58:37 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Oct 27 15:58:50 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, Message-ID: Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Do or do not. There is no try... > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. > > Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, > and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer > Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen > to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against > your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a > while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. > > Spot the cynic, eh? > > All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, > volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. > Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not > try). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ****************************************************************************** > "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and > may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the > Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about > the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > ****************************************************************************** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 16:05:41 2011 From: agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz (Secret Agent) Date: Thu Oct 27 16:05:55 2011 Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319684685.89503.YahooMailNeo@web124718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1319681794.99221.YahooMailNeo@web124701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <1319684685.89503.YahooMailNeo@web124718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319684741.5873.YahooMailNeo@web124708.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ahhh well, if that is the only reason then that's great. I am only secret because I am involved in the situation whereby people may not like me having my say, however, should it be necessary, I am only too happy to front up. No point if no one cares about saving this much money when all these support staff are being laid off/reduced owing to apparant lack of budget. ? But then if no one wants to know and you want to keep bending over and take it, then that is your choice. Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ________________________________ From: Erich Speck To: 'Secret Agent' ; 'VollyNet' Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:50 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action Probably the reason there are no replies is because you are operating as a Secret Agent Eric Speck -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Secret Agent Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:17 pm To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Actually I stuffed up, that's a saving of $59,600,000 a year/per annum. Not $57,600,000. And no one has any comments?? Sheese...... that's really wierd! Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Secret Agent To: "vollynet@vollynet.org.nz" Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. Regarding budget and cutbacks. The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. $203 Million goes to the NZFS $97 Million goes to the NRFA NZFS Has approx 440 paid and vol stations Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum Has the structure and management Has the system, policies and procedures etc Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc NRFA Has no stations but there are 187 VRFF's. No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. Or am I the only one who sees this? Love to hear your comments. thanks Secret Agent 25. -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. My list: Why have we got a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. Focusing on one or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 27 16:23:57 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Thu Oct 27 16:24:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, Message-ID: <1319685837.31385.YahooMailNeo@web112512.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> So i guess the question is.... are the new contracts any different to the current ones, and if they are the same then nothing changes does it? But I'm picking that there is something in there that doesnt appeal to folks in those positions, ie: forced relocation etc ________________________________ From: Tristan Saunders To: VollyNet Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:58 PM Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Do or do not. There is no try... > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. > > Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, > and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer > Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen > to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against > your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a > while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. > > Spot the cynic, eh? > > All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, > volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. > Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not > try). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ****************************************************************************** > "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and > may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the > Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about > the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > ****************************************************************************** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From allanhoult at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 27 16:27:09 2011 From: allanhoult at yahoo.com.au (Allan Hoult) Date: Thu Oct 27 16:27:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, Message-ID: <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> With a myriad of staff?in HR, and consultants and analysts to boot, I'm amazed that the NZFS still may have started the biggest PR blunder they could have dreamed up. ? ________________________________ From: Tristan Saunders To: VollyNet Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:58 PM Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Do or do not. There is no try... > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're wrong. > > Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, > and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer > Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen > to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against > your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a > while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. > > Spot the cynic, eh? > > All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, > volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. > Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not > try). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ****************************************************************************** > "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and > may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the > Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about > the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > ****************************************************************************** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Oct 27 16:39:57 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Oct 27 16:40:14 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA8D28D.50204@hintz.org> On 10/27/11 4:27 PM, Allan Hoult wrote: > With a myriad of staff in HR, and consultants and analysts to boot, I'm amazed that the NZFS still may have started the biggest PR blunder they could have dreamed up. I gotta admit, doing this right as election time rolls in to town seems like a pretty silly idea. I can't think of a better time for NZPFU to make a public s**tstorm. You'd think NZFS would be smart enough to put it off until Jan or so. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From mike at firepumps.co.nz Thu Oct 27 17:01:49 2011 From: mike at firepumps.co.nz (Mike Harrison) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:02:26 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, Message-ID: Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Tristan Saunders Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Do or do not. There is no try... > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that they're > > wrong. > > Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're right, > and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha know (refer > Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs pretend to listen > to you and make reassuring noises before they cheerfully vote against > your interests in favor of those with big money. And every once in a > while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. > > Spot the cynic, eh? > > All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, > volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. > Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to not > try). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ****************************************************************************** > "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are confidential and > may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the > Reserve Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about > the content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > ****************************************************************************** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 17:10:01 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:11:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, Message-ID: <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond with any action. One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as then you will be picked off one by one. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Tristan Saunders Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM To: VollyNet Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Do or do not. There is no try... > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > > Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > > they're wrong. > > Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do something halfway sane. > > Spot the cynic, eh? > > All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, > volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. > Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > not try). > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ********************************************************************** > ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > this message from your system. > > This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from > the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > ********************************************************************** > ******** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:13:06 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:13:23 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <4EA8D28D.50204@hintz.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , , , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , , , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , , , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , , , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, , <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, , <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4EA8D28D.50204@hintz.org> Message-ID: perfect timing for them Ed... Why has Mike wanted to rush this through..? It may be conspiracy theory stuff, but what better time to be changing conditions and positions than when the paid staff effectively dont have a contract... > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:39:57 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/27/11 4:27 PM, Allan Hoult wrote: > > > With a myriad of staff in HR, and consultants and analysts to boot, I'm amazed that the NZFS still may have started the biggest PR blunder they could have dreamed up. > > I gotta admit, doing this right as election time rolls in to town seems > like a pretty silly idea. I can't think of a better time for NZPFU to > make a public s**tstorm. You'd think NZFS would be smart enough to put > it off until Jan or so. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Thu Oct 27 17:13:49 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:14:00 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> Message-ID: <2FA625B9-A6DF-456B-A2AB-E8DE4EBFC63F@sutorius.org> Please note that the VollyNet community has voted that anonymous posting is generally NOT PERMITTED. If you have a compelling reason why you are unable to openly participate under your own name please contact me off-list to discuss your situation and options (tony@sutorius.org, 027 2867325). Tony Sutorius VollyNet Admin On 27/10/2011, at 15:50, Erich Speck wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Probably the reason there are no replies is because you are operating as a Secret Agent > > Eric Speck > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Secret Agent > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:17 pm > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Actually I stuffed up, that's a saving of $59,600,000 a year/per annum. Not $57,600,000. > > And no one has any comments?? Sheese...... that's really wierd! > > Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Secret Agent > To: "vollynet@vollynet.org.nz" > Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:41 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. > > Regarding budget and cutbacks. > The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. > $203 Million goes to the NZFS > $97 Million goes to the NRFA > > NZFS > Has approx 440 paid and vol stations > Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum > Has the structure and management > Has the system, policies and procedures etc > Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc > > NRFA > Has no stations but there are 187 VRFF's. > No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's > > What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? > > Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. > It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. > > Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. > > Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. > > I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. > > Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. > > Or am I the only one who sees this? > > Love to hear your comments. > > thanks > > Secret Agent 25. > > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > VOLLYNET : OPEN > DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I think there > are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. > My list: > Why have we got > a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. > Focusing on one > or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. > > Geoff > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE > COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > ALL posts to > VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ed at hintz.org Thu Oct 27 17:18:31 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:18:40 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <4EA8DB97.5090106@hintz.org> On 10/27/11 5:10 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as then > you will be picked off one by one. "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Ben Franklin, Continental Congress, 1776, while signing the Declaration of Independence. :) -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Thu Oct 27 17:23:05 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:23:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , , , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , , , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , , , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , , , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, , <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, , <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4EA8D28D.50204@hintz.org> Message-ID: <4EA8DCA9.1020703@hintz.org> On 10/27/11 5:13 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > perfect timing for them Ed... Why has Mike wanted to rush this through..? It may be conspiracy theory stuff, but what better time to be changing conditions and positions than when the paid staff effectively dont have a contract... But do they somehow get a contract if the FS does nothing? I'd have thought the status quo would simply remain. If so, I'd think the FS would be smart to put this off until after the elections. Any ruckus the PFU makes right now could be picked up and turned into a circus with the politicos all just looking for an issue to hitch their wagons to. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From ed at hintz.org Thu Oct 27 17:28:06 2011 From: ed at hintz.org (Edmund Hintz) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:28:14 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <2FA625B9-A6DF-456B-A2AB-E8DE4EBFC63F@sutorius.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <2FA625B9-A6DF-456B-A2AB-E8DE4EBFC63F@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <4EA8DDD6.3010107@hintz.org> On 10/27/11 5:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > Please note that the VollyNet community has voted that anonymous posting is generally NOT PERMITTED. > > If you have a compelling reason why you are unable to openly participate under your own name please contact me off-list to discuss your situation and options (tony@sutorius.org, 027 2867325). Worth noting that if for whatever reason you do not personally trust Tony, Mark and yours truly are also options. I'm personally perfectly happy to trust the discretion of both of them, but the reason there's several of us is to try and allow some level of choice. Rest assured that if I am trusted with an identity and it is desired that neither Tony or Mark be made aware of it, I'm not squealin'. Of course, being a bit of a tribunal as it were, I'd still have to convince them to go along with me (and vice versa were the trusted party not myself). But I'd have to say that in general if either of them come to me and state that compelling and reasonable case for anonymity has been made that I'm quite happy to trust their judgement on the issue. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org From tony at sutorius.org Thu Oct 27 17:31:00 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:31:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> Hi Adam, Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in loose concert would be formidable. As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. T. On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond with > any action. > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as then > you will be picked off one by one. > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go it > will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end so it > will directly affect volunteer brigades. > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tristan Saunders > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their jobs > cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont then have > to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Do or do not. There is no try... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >> >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>> they're wrong. >> >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do something > halfway sane. >> >> Spot the cynic, eh? >> >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over wages, >> volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >> not try). >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Ed Hintz >> ed@hintz.org >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> >> ********************************************************************** >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >> this message from your system. >> >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation from >> the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >> ********************************************************************** >> ******** >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 17:39:53 2011 From: agent25_1a01 at yahoo.co.nz (Secret Agent) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:40:07 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <4EA8DDD6.3010107@hintz.org> References: <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <2FA625B9-A6DF-456B-A2AB-E8DE4EBFC63F@sutorius.org> <4EA8DDD6.3010107@hintz.org> Message-ID: <1319690393.67216.YahooMailNeo@web124703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks for your words Ed, seem alittle more less dictatorial than Tony's. ? However, I have had my say, I really dont need to be part of this group anymore anyway, so if my account gets deleted, so be it. I was trying to assist with some information, but it seems the only concern is who I am and who runs the show. If I have been abusive I am sorry, If i have upset I am sorry, but you would be foolish to ignore what I have said given the cutbacks of support staff when there is plenty of money to provide more than what is there now, the only thing is that the money is not being utilised in the best possible way, it is been wasting on an entity that doesnt even provide a proper fire service, Councils/Fire Authorities pay for VRFF's with grants being provided at the NRFO's discretion. ? But...... hey, $59.600,000 isnt worth worrying about is it? Lets just make cuts and give ol' Murray his budget. ? All the best guys. Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 ________________________________ From: Edmund Hintz To: VollyNet Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- On 10/27/11 5:13 PM, Tony Sutorius wrote: > Please note that the VollyNet community has voted that anonymous posting is generally NOT PERMITTED. > > If you have a compelling reason why you are unable to openly participate under your own name please contact me off-list to discuss your situation and options (tony@sutorius.org, 027 2867325). Worth noting that if for whatever reason you do not personally trust Tony, Mark and yours truly are also options. I'm personally perfectly happy to trust the discretion of both of them, but the reason there's several of us is to try and allow some level of choice. Rest assured that if I am trusted with an identity and it is desired that neither Tony or Mark be made aware of it, I'm not squealin'. Of course, being a bit of a tribunal as it were, I'd still have to convince them to go along with me (and vice versa were the trusted party not myself). But I'd have to say that in general if either of them come to me and state that compelling and reasonable case for anonymity has been made that I'm quite happy to trust their judgement on the issue. -- Regards, Ed Hintz ed@hintz.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 17:46:19 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:46:36 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> Hi Tony, I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was solidarity. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Adam, Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in loose concert would be formidable. As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. T. On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > with any action. > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tristan Saunders > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Do or do not. There is no try... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >> >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>> they're wrong. >> >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >> something > halfway sane. >> >> Spot the cynic, eh? >> >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >> not try). >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Ed Hintz >> ed@hintz.org >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >> this message from your system. >> >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ******** >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Oct 27 17:52:11 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Oct 27 17:52:34 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: Adam Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term "professional" b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > said > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > solidarity. > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > > with any action. > > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > > > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Do or do not. There is no try... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >> > >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>> they're wrong. > >> > >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >> something > > halfway sane. > >> > >> Spot the cynic, eh? > >> > >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. > >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >> not try). > >> > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ed Hintz > >> ed@hintz.org > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >> this message from your system. > >> > >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 18:12:05 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:12:27 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <006201cc9466$f99f3f40$ecddbdc0$@yahoo.co.nz> Hi Ben, I don't understand why we don't distinguish ourselves as professionals, (as volunteers) because in my role as a volunteer, I proceed very much as a professional. I like all procedures to be followed, I like all policies and fire ground operations done as the SOP's/NCI's state, radio messages, appliance parking, riding positions, everything is done in a certain way and so much so that prospective members are weened/weeded out if I think they are not up to it or wont fit the bill. I have standards and requirements of my members, so in light of that, my approach is very professional. I am a professional volunteer. J Thanks and regards From: Ben Kepes [mailto:ben@diversity.net.nz] Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:52 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun Adam Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term "professional" b Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes web www.diversity.net.nz On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Tony, I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was solidarity. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Adam, Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in loose concert would be formidable. As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. T. On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > with any action. > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tristan Saunders > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > To: VollyNet > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Do or do not. There is no try... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >> >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>> they're wrong. >> >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >> something > halfway sane. >> >> Spot the cynic, eh? >> >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National morons. >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >> not try). >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Ed Hintz >> ed@hintz.org >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >> this message from your system. >> >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >> ********************************************************************* >> * >> ******** >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From ben at diversity.net.nz Thu Oct 27 18:14:00 2011 From: ben at diversity.net.nz (Ben Kepes) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:14:15 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <006201cc9466$f99f3f40$ecddbdc0$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <006201cc9466$f99f3f40$ecddbdc0$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: I agree entirely. Ergo we are all professional firefighters - we should start communicating as such IMO Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 27, 2011 6:12 PM, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > Hi Ben,**** > > ** ** > > I don?t understand why we don?t distinguish ourselves as professionals, (as > volunteers) because in my role as a volunteer, I proceed very much as a > professional. I like all procedures to be followed, I like all policies and > fire ground operations done as the SOP?s/NCI?s state, radio messages, > appliance parking, riding positions, everything is done in a certain way and > so much so that prospective members are weened/weeded out if I think they > are not up to it or wont fit the bill. I have standards and requirements of > my members, so in light of that, my approach is very professional.**** > > ** ** > > I am a professional volunteer. J**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thanks and regards**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ben Kepes [mailto:ben@diversity.net.nz] > *Sent:* Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:52 p.m. > *To:* adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > *Subject:* Re: [VollyNet] It has begun**** > > ** ** > > Adam**** > > ** ** > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we > really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > "professional"**** > > ** ** > > b**** > > ** ** > > > **** > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz **** > > > > **** > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic > wrote:**** > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ----------------------------------------------------------------**** > > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > said > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > solidarity.**** > > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz**** > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m.**** > > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > > with any action. > > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > > > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Do or do not. There is no try... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >> > >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>> they're wrong. > >> > >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >> something > > halfway sane. > >> > >> Spot the cynic, eh? > >> > >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. > >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >> not try). > >> > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ed Hintz > >> ed@hintz.org > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >> this message from your system. > >> > >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise**** > > ** ** > From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 27 18:18:45 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:18:52 2011 Subject: [Bulk] Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action In-Reply-To: <1319684741.5873.YahooMailNeo@web124708.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1319681794.99221.YahooMailNeo@web124701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <71B810742DC98742AED017465A504032373C3EC8E0@IRLMAILBOX.int.irl.cri.nz> <1319684685.89503.YahooMailNeo@web124718.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1319684741.5873.YahooMailNeo@web124708.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319692725.1767.4.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I can see your logic and agree that the whole system need a shake up. Not only getting ride of the different fire districts but also the St. John virtual monopoly on medical calls and inclusion of Civil Defence in or remit. In other works have we should be Emergency Service Brigades looking after the need of our communities which are all different. The work for the FSC has become part of what we do not the whole Geoff Marks On Wed, 2011-10-26 at 20:05 -0700, Secret Agent wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Ahhh well, if that is the only reason then that's great. I am only secret because I am involved in the situation whereby people may not like me having my say, however, should it be necessary, I am only too happy to front up. No point if no one cares about saving this much money when all these support staff are being laid off/reduced owing to apparant lack of budget. > > But then if no one wants to know and you want to keep bending over and take it, then that is your choice. > > Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 > > > ________________________________ > From: Erich Speck > To: 'Secret Agent' ; 'VollyNet' > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:50 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > Probably the reason there are no replies is because you are operating as a Secret Agent > > Eric Speck > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Secret Agent > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 3:17 pm > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Fw: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Actually I stuffed up, that's a saving of $59,600,000 a year/per annum. Not $57,600,000. > > And no one has any comments?? Sheese...... that's really wierd! > > Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Secret Agent > To: "vollynet@vollynet.org.nz" > Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011 6:41 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I have a question or two. Or even just a statement. > > Regarding budget and cutbacks. > The NZFS Commission gets $300 million per annum. > $203 Million goes to the NZFS > $97 Million goes to the NRFA > > NZFS > Has approx 440 paid and vol stations > Runs a vol brigade for approx $100,000 per annum > Has the structure and management > Has the system, policies and procedures etc > Uniform, appliances, equipment etc etc > > NRFA > Has no stations but there are 187 > VRFF's. > No structure, nomanagement, no system, no policies, no procedures, no uniforms, appliances and equipment. Everything is paid for by the Fire Authorities and/or fundraising by the VRFF's > > What the hell does the NRFA spend the $97 million on? > > Taking the NZFS model of $100,000 per station, per year. > It would cost the NZFS $18,700,000 to run the nations VRFF's. Lets double it for good luck, to cover upgrades, and incidentals like extra support (paid) personnel. Ok, $37,400,000 to run the nations VRFF's. > > Subtract from $97,000,000 - $37,400,000 = $59,600,000 savings each year, per annum. > > Here we have an extra $57,600,000 to pay for a whole heap of support staff for volly's and in addition, the 187 VRFF's currently not directly funded and only provided for by way of grants when the NRFO decides he will pay for it brought up to a proper level of resourcing and funding, with no extra money required, the only thing > required is to phase out the NRFA and amalgamate the VRFF's into on NZ Fire Service. > > I think I worked it out correct, that's $57,600.000 per year savings with another 187 properly funded and resourced FIRE BRIGADES. > > Why doesnt anyone care or want to listen to this argument, and why does Mr Dudfield continue to remain the NRFO, surely he is only protecting his domain/kingdom by introducing "Enlarged Rural Fire Districts". These are not needed and are a waste of time and money, when an easier method and cost effective way is to amalgamate all Fire Services in NZ into one. > > Or am I the only one who sees this? > > Love to hear your comments. > > thanks > > Secret Agent 25. > > > > -----Original > Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family > Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 10:36 p.m. > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > VOLLYNET : OPEN > DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I think there > are number of issues that should be raised loud and clear with any politician that is willing to listen. We had two visit our area on Monday for a festival we were holding. > My list: > Why have we got > a 24 year old appliance when ministers get 2 year old mercs? Why are we not funded for medical call outs? Why when we are de-facto civil defence this is not part of government thinking? Why as volunteers are we not > compensated for the expenses we encure just by being volunteers, fuel, babysitting etc? Why is the Fire Service Act so out of date? Why do we have so many fire districts, urban, rural, DOC? You would be right to point out that so many question (complaints) could look like wingeing. > Focusing on one > or two where we will win in the court of public opinion is the way to go. > > Geoff > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE > COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > ALL posts to > VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > Secret Agent 25 @ 1a01 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated > otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 27 18:21:58 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:22:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision In-Reply-To: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <1319692918.1767.6.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> The following is a quote from a letter received from the Fire Service Commission on the 4th November 2009 a copy was sent to the UFBA. ?Agreement of service. I have researched our register of Agreement of Service and have found no Agreement of Service for the Little River Brigade more recent than the 1976 version in your possession. This is consistent with my personal knowledge that volunteer brigades in Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions did not take up the opportunity offered in 2002-2004 to enter new Agreement of Service with the Commission? This statement shows that both the FSC and the UFBA know that all the brigades in the former Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions are not signed up to the present Model Agreement of Service. Why then is the present Model Agreement of Service exclusively referred to in the proposed Model Rules of Association when most of the brigades on the South Island are not signed up to them. Is it an attempt to introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth? I again urge all brigades to find out what their present Agreement of Service is and I say to the UFBA to sort out this mess before the conference. Geoff Marks On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 22:35 +1300, Marks Family wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.ufba.org.nz/news/ufba_news/ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Thu Oct 27 18:29:44 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:29:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD579@sutorius.org> Hi Adam, I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and practical unreplaceability are immutable. The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their strategy. Tony On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't said > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective power > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > solidarity. > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond >> with any action. >> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >> then you will be picked off one by one. >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end >> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tristan Saunders >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >> >> >>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>> they're wrong. >>> >>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>> something >> halfway sane. >>> >>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>> >>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. >>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>> not try). >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed Hintz >>> ed@hintz.org >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> * >>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>> this message from your system. >>> >>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>> ********************************************************************* >>> * >>> ******** >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Thu Oct 27 18:40:28 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:40:38 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <11596A91-89F4-4942-91AC-4E6BEB72400E@sutorius.org> Hi Ben, I agree. I'd add that, as I suggested some time ago, most of our interests are the same as those of career firefighters. In my opinion it has been a pity, and a serious strategic mistake, that our respective national bodies have not spent the last 15 years building much stronger bonds and trust. It's VERY important that everyone moves forward remembering that our "opponents" are not career staff, nor in fact Fire Service management for the most part, who at the end of the day must do as instructed by their Minister. Our issue is political, and our efforts must be focused on public opinion. T. On 27/10/2011, at 17:52, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Adam > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we > really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > "professional" > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tony, >> >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't >> said >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. >> >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective >> power >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was >> solidarity. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Adam, >> >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in >> loose concert would be formidable. >> >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? >> >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. >> >> T. >> >> >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" >> wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond >>> with any action. >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >>> then you will be picked off one by one. >>> >>> >>> Thanks and regards >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tristan Saunders >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >>> >>> >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>>> they're wrong. >>>> >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>>> something >>> halfway sane. >>>> >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>>> >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National >> morons. >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>>> not try). >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> ********************************************************************* >>>> * >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>>> this message from your system. >>>> >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>>> ********************************************************************* >>>> * >>>> ******** >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion >> only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 18:56:51 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:57:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD579@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD579@sutorius.org > Message-ID: <006a01cc946d$3aa7e6d0$aff7b470$@yahoo.co.nz> Hi Tony, I do believe volunteer brigades have power, but not individually. My view. Biggest thing though above this is DONOT ever withdraw services. Do stoppages such as no filing of returns, no radio messages, etc etc, but to refuse to respond would be crazy. As a paid firey, the one thing we never did was withdraw service to the community. I agree that the NZPFU are doing some strange things in recent times, and in particular have some serious flaws in their strategy, but times have changed and those making the earlier decisions are no longer at the helm, and ideas have changed. I still believe though, collective power will always prevail. Divide and conquer ......... And as Ed Hintz eluded to; "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Ben Franklin, Continental Congress, 1776, while signing the Declaration of Independence. Why go it alone or in groups when we can go it as a whole? Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: Tony Sutorius [mailto:tony@sutorius.org] Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun Hi Adam, I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and practical unreplaceability are immutable. The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their strategy. Tony On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades > haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon > them, and why they haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid > Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a > 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing > that stood out was solidarity. > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > operating in loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. > Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and >> respond with any action. >> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >> then you will be picked off one by one. >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving >> end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tristan Saunders >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >> >> >>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>> they're wrong. >>> >>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>> something >> halfway sane. >>> >>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>> >>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. >>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>> not try). >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed Hintz >>> ed@hintz.org >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> >>> ******************************************************************** >>> * >>> * >>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>> this message from your system. >>> >>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>> ******************************************************************** >>> * >>> * >>> ******** >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 18:59:17 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 18:59:37 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <11596A91-89F4-4942-91AC-4E6BEB72400E@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <11596A91-89F4-4942-91AC-4E6BEB72400E@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <006b01cc946d$91ed5ce0$b5c816a0$@yahoo.co.nz> Agree with Tony on that point/s !! Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:40 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ben, I agree. I'd add that, as I suggested some time ago, most of our interests are the same as those of career firefighters. In my opinion it has been a pity, and a serious strategic mistake, that our respective national bodies have not spent the last 15 years building much stronger bonds and trust. It's VERY important that everyone moves forward remembering that our "opponents" are not career staff, nor in fact Fire Service management for the most part, who at the end of the day must do as instructed by their Minister. Our issue is political, and our efforts must be focused on public opinion. T. On 27/10/2011, at 17:52, Ben Kepes wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Adam > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. > If we really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > "professional" > > b > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz > > > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tony, >> >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades >> haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon >> them, and why they haven't stopped the support staff level from being >> reduced. >> >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The >> collective power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an >> ex-paid Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we >> fought a 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the >> one thing that stood out was solidarity. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Adam, >> >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades >> operating in loose concert would be formidable. >> >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little >> risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? >> >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I >> see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. >> Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. >> >> T. >> >> >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" >> wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and >>> respond with any action. >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >>> then you will be picked off one by one. >>> >>> >>> Thanks and regards >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs >>> go it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the >>> receiving end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good >>> Regards Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tristan Saunders >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating >>> their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If >>> they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >>> >>> >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>>> they're wrong. >>>> >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>>> something >>> halfway sane. >>>> >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>>> >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National >> morons. >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>>> not try). >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> ******************************************************************* >>>> ** >>>> * >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>>> this message from your system. >>>> >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>>> ******************************************************************* >>>> ** >>>> * >>>> ******** >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From realtswain at clear.net.nz Thu Oct 27 19:15:51 2011 From: realtswain at clear.net.nz (Tony S) Date: Thu Oct 27 19:16:06 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD579@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz> Hi everyone I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to volunteer support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades will result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. Our brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our DVSA position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the impending cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut backs. 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the commission that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra work load etc etc etc 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 In the event of any dispute arising between- (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of New Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of the dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by that Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in any case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be reached, either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, whose decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable conclusion, the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine the stock pile of paperwork that would be created. Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about 10 years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved and was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the Ministers suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about 2 years. By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious thought, I believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions Regards Tony Swain 0274 468495 -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Adam, I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and practical unreplaceability are immutable. The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their strategy. Tony On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't said > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective power > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > solidarity. > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond >> with any action. >> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >> then you will be picked off one by one. >> >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end >> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tristan Saunders >> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >> >> >>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>> they're wrong. >>> >>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>> something >> halfway sane. >>> >>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>> >>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. >>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>> not try). >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed Hintz >>> ed@hintz.org >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> * >>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>> this message from your system. >>> >>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>> ********************************************************************* >>> * >>> ******** >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 19:19:04 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Oct 27 19:19:18 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <4EA8DCA9.1020703@hintz.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, ,,, ,,<8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, ,,, ,,<399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, ,,,,, <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, ,,,,, <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, ,,<1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,,<8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, ,,<4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , , , , <1319686029.76184.YahooMailNeo@web112504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4EA8D28D.50204@hintz.org>, , <4EA8DCA9.1020703@hintz.org> Message-ID: well strictly speaking no, but all they would have to do is sign it again. But the union wouldn't allow a straight roll over. Funnily enough, if the union had accepted the 2.5% then the agreement would be in place (which includes black watch workers) but they didn't. So it allows an avenue for the employer to make changes, and as it would seem they are doing, outside of the CEA. Hence my conspiracy theory.. Mike had an inkling (and no reason to not have it, pretty obvious 'history tells' scenario really) that settlement wouldn't happen, making it easier for these changes to be addressed... Have an employment row all at the same time, rather than splitting it all up.. > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:23:05 +1300 > From: ed@hintz.org > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > On 10/27/11 5:13 PM, Tristan Saunders wrote: > > > perfect timing for them Ed... Why has Mike wanted to rush this through..? It may be conspiracy theory stuff, but what better time to be changing conditions and positions than when the paid staff effectively dont have a contract... > > But do they somehow get a contract if the FS does nothing? I'd have > thought the status quo would simply remain. If so, I'd think the FS > would be smart to put this off until after the elections. Any ruckus the > PFU makes right now could be picked up and turned into a circus with the > politicos all just looking for an issue to hitch their wagons to. > > -- > Regards, > > Ed Hintz > ed@hintz.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 19:28:57 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Oct 27 19:29:10 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, , <006201cc9466$f99f3f40$ecddbdc0$@yahoo.co.nz>, Message-ID: IMO alot of the reason that the volunteer sector gets a bit of a raw deal at times is because they allow it. Some of the differences between the two sectors are unbelievable.. > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:14:00 -0700 > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: ben@diversity.net.nz > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz > CC: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I agree entirely. Ergo we are all professional firefighters - we should > start communicating as such IMO > > Sent from mobile. Expect typos > On Oct 27, 2011 6:12 PM, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > > > Hi Ben,**** > > > > ** ** > > > > I don?t understand why we don?t distinguish ourselves as professionals, (as > > volunteers) because in my role as a volunteer, I proceed very much as a > > professional. I like all procedures to be followed, I like all policies and > > fire ground operations done as the SOP?s/NCI?s state, radio messages, > > appliance parking, riding positions, everything is done in a certain way and > > so much so that prospective members are weened/weeded out if I think they > > are not up to it or wont fit the bill. I have standards and requirements of > > my members, so in light of that, my approach is very professional.**** > > > > ** ** > > > > I am a professional volunteer. J**** > > > > ** ** > > > > ** ** > > > > Thanks and regards**** > > > > ** ** > > > > ** ** > > > > *From:* Ben Kepes [mailto:ben@diversity.net.nz] > > *Sent:* Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:52 p.m. > > *To:* adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > *Subject:* Re: [VollyNet] It has begun**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Adam**** > > > > ** ** > > > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we > > really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > > "professional"**** > > > > ** ** > > > > b**** > > > > ** ** > > > > > > **** > > > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > > web www.diversity.net.nz **** > > > > > > > > **** > > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic > > wrote:**** > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------**** > > > > Hi Tony, > > > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > > solidarity.**** > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz**** > > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m.**** > > > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > > loose concert would be formidable. > > > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > > > T. > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > > > with any action. > > > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > > To: VollyNet > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > > > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > > > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > > > Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Tristan Saunders > > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > > To: VollyNet > > > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > > > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > > > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > > > > > > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > >> > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Do or do not. There is no try... > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > > >> To: VollyNet > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > >> > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > > >>> they're wrong. > > >> > > >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > > >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > > >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > > >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > > >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > > >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > > >> something > > > halfway sane. > > >> > > >> Spot the cynic, eh? > > >> > > >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > > >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > > morons. > > >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > > >> not try). > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Regards, > > >> > > >> Ed Hintz > > >> ed@hintz.org > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> > > >> > > >> ********************************************************************* > > >> * > > >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > > >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > > >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > > >> this message from your system. > > >> > > >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > > >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > > >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > > >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > > >> ********************************************************************* > > >> * > > >> ******** > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise**** > > > > ** ** > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 27 20:10:14 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Thu Oct 27 20:10:28 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision In-Reply-To: <1319692918.1767.6.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P>, <1319692918.1767.6.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: wow. this all makes me feel like saying 'hey hey one issue at a time'... certainly all coming out.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:21:58 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > The following is a quote from a letter received from the Fire Service > Commission on the 4th November 2009 a copy was sent to the UFBA. > > ?Agreement of service. I have researched our register of Agreement of > Service and have found no Agreement of Service for the Little River > Brigade more recent than the 1976 version in your possession. This is > consistent with my personal knowledge that volunteer brigades in > Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions did not take up the opportunity > offered in 2002-2004 to enter new Agreement of Service with the > Commission? > > This statement shows that both the FSC and the UFBA know that all the > brigades in the former Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions are not > signed up to the present Model Agreement of Service. > > Why then is the present Model Agreement of Service exclusively referred > to in the proposed Model Rules of Association when most of the brigades > on the South Island are not signed up to them. Is it an attempt to > introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth? > > I again urge all brigades to find out what their present Agreement of > Service is and I say to the UFBA to sort out this mess before the > conference. > > Geoff Marks > > On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 22:35 +1300, Marks Family wrote: > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.ufba.org.nz/news/ufba_news/ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Thu Oct 27 21:17:07 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Thu Oct 27 21:17:12 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <006a01cc946d$3aa7e6d0$aff7b470$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD579@sutorius.org > <006a01cc946d$3aa7e6d0$aff7b470$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <313AA022-2BD6-4CE3-B368-AE2A41ED1E3A@sutorius.org> Hi Adam, In principle I couldn't agree more with everything you've said. And I *MOST DEFINITELY* would hate to see anyone do anything that might put our communities at risk. I haven't heard anyone suggest that, and personally I would never support it. So, while I agree that it'd be super if every brigade across the country were to spontaneously begin singing from the same song sheet and work as one, my experience is that in real life no movement for change ever starts out that way... and brigades about to loose resources they rely on would be most unwise to "wait and see" if it magically happens. There is always a smaller, more committed group within the whole who lead the charge. Every now and then, those people change the world. T. On 27/10/2011, at 18:56, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > Hi Tony, > > I do believe volunteer brigades have power, but not individually. My view. > > Biggest thing though above this is DONOT ever withdraw services. Do > stoppages such as no filing of returns, no radio messages, etc etc, but to > refuse to respond would be crazy. As a paid firey, the one thing we never > did was withdraw service to the community. > > I agree that the NZPFU are doing some strange things in recent times, and in > particular have some serious flaws in their strategy, but times have changed > and those making the earlier decisions are no longer at the helm, and ideas > have changed. > > I still believe though, collective power will always prevail. > Divide and conquer ......... > > And as Ed Hintz eluded to; > > "We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang > separately." > Ben Franklin, Continental Congress, 1776, while signing the Declaration of > Independence. > > Why go it alone or in groups when we can go it as a whole? > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Sutorius [mailto:tony@sutorius.org] > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > Hi Adam, > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > strategy. > > Tony > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tony, >> >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades >> haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon >> them, and why they haven't stopped the support staff level from being > reduced. >> >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective >> power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid >> Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a >> 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing >> that stood out was solidarity. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Adam, >> >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades >> operating in loose concert would be formidable. >> >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little >> risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? >> >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I >> see no reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. >> Brigades can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. >> >> T. >> >> >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and >>> respond with any action. >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >>> then you will be picked off one by one. >>> >>> >>> Thanks and regards >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving >>> end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tristan Saunders >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >>> >>> >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>>> they're wrong. >>>> >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>>> something >>> halfway sane. >>>> >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>>> >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National >> morons. >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>>> not try). >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>> * >>>> * >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>>> this message from your system. >>>> >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>> * >>>> * >>>> ******** >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > From neason at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 27 21:50:55 2011 From: neason at xtra.co.nz (Neason Family) Date: Thu Oct 27 21:50:49 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Adam/Ben Don't get hung up on words, we are volunteers, not professionals. The adjective "professional" describes someone who works at a profession. I'm a professional pilot i.e. I work and get paid at the profession of piloting aeroplanes. A private pilot may be a more skilled pilot than me but he/she is not a professional. Paid firefighters work at the profession of firefighting and get paid to do so; we don't, we volunteer. It has nothing to do with skill or attitude, it simply differentiates between two groups one of which gets paid and one doesn't (for doing a similar task). And to be honest it has bugger all to do with the present discussion. Read Tony Swain's contribution... if your brigade has an issue, that's the way to go. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz]On Behalf Of Ben Kepes Sent: 27 October 2011 18:14 To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz Cc: VollyNet Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I agree entirely. Ergo we are all professional firefighters - we should start communicating as such IMO Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 27, 2011 6:12 PM, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > Hi Ben,**** > > ** ** > > I don?t understand why we don?t distinguish ourselves as professionals, (as > volunteers) because in my role as a volunteer, I proceed very much as a > professional. I like all procedures to be followed, I like all policies and > fire ground operations done as the SOP?s/NCI?s state, radio messages, > appliance parking, riding positions, everything is done in a certain way and > so much so that prospective members are weened/weeded out if I think they > are not up to it or wont fit the bill. I have standards and requirements of > my members, so in light of that, my approach is very professional.**** > > ** ** > > I am a professional volunteer. J**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thanks and regards**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ben Kepes [mailto:ben@diversity.net.nz] > *Sent:* Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:52 p.m. > *To:* adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > *Subject:* Re: [VollyNet] It has begun**** > > ** ** > > Adam**** > > ** ** > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. If we > really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > "professional"**** > > ** ** > > b**** > > ** ** > > > **** > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz **** > > > > **** > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic > wrote:**** > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ----------------------------------------------------------------**** > > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > said > no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power > of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > solidarity.**** > > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz**** > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m.**** > > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > > with any action. > > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > > it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > > so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > > jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > > then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > > > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Do or do not. There is no try... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >> > >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>> they're wrong. > >> > >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >> something > > halfway sane. > >> > >> Spot the cynic, eh? > >> > >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. > >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >> not try). > >> > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ed Hintz > >> ed@hintz.org > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >> this message from your system. > >> > >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >> ********************************************************************* > >> * > >> ******** > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise**** > > ** ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 22:03:49 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 22:04:12 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008501cc9487$593c1f70$0bb45e50$@yahoo.co.nz> Aww shit Mike, just go ahead and burst our bubble ....... :) I am still a professional volunteer regardless. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Neason Family Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 9:51 p.m. To: VollyNet Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Adam/Ben Don't get hung up on words, we are volunteers, not professionals. The adjective "professional" describes someone who works at a profession. I'm a professional pilot i.e. I work and get paid at the profession of piloting aeroplanes. A private pilot may be a more skilled pilot than me but he/she is not a professional. Paid firefighters work at the profession of firefighting and get paid to do so; we don't, we volunteer. It has nothing to do with skill or attitude, it simply differentiates between two groups one of which gets paid and one doesn't (for doing a similar task). And to be honest it has bugger all to do with the present discussion. Read Tony Swain's contribution... if your brigade has an issue, that's the way to go. Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz]On Behalf Of Ben Kepes Sent: 27 October 2011 18:14 To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz Cc: VollyNet Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I agree entirely. Ergo we are all professional firefighters - we should start communicating as such IMO Sent from mobile. Expect typos On Oct 27, 2011 6:12 PM, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > Hi Ben,**** > > ** ** > > I don't understand why we don't distinguish ourselves as > professionals, (as > volunteers) because in my role as a volunteer, I proceed very much as > a professional. I like all procedures to be followed, I like all > policies and > fire ground operations done as the SOP's/NCI's state, radio messages, > appliance parking, riding positions, everything is done in a certain > way and > so much so that prospective members are weened/weeded out if I think > they are not up to it or wont fit the bill. I have standards and > requirements of > my members, so in light of that, my approach is very professional.**** > > ** ** > > I am a professional volunteer. J**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Thanks and regards**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ben Kepes [mailto:ben@diversity.net.nz] > *Sent:* Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:52 p.m. > *To:* adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > *Subject:* Re: [VollyNet] It has begun**** > > ** ** > > Adam**** > > ** ** > > Partly it's a function of lack of power, but also it's a function of a > subservient position that, frankly, we've accepted since the get-go. > If we really want to be treated as equals we'd be unlikely to let paid > firefighters differentiate themselves from us by using the term > "professional"**** > > ** ** > > b**** > > ** ** > > > **** > > Ben Kepes - Diversity Limited > E ben@diversity.net.nz | P +64 3 3146006 | M 021 2384136 > skype ben_kepes | twitter @benkepes > web www.diversity.net.nz **** > > > > **** > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Adam Knezovic > > wrote:**** > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ----------------------------------------------------------------**** > > Hi Tony, > > I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades > haven't said no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon > them, and why they > haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid > Firefighter, and have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a > 9 year battle to stop restructuring and job losses, and the one thing > that stood out was > solidarity.**** > > > Thanks and regards > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz**** > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m.**** > > To: VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > operating in > loose concert would be formidable. > > As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > risk to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > see no > reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > can, and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > T. > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and > > respond with any action. > > One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > then you will be picked off one by one. > > > > > > Thanks and regards > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs > > go it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the > > receiving end so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good > > Regards Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tristan Saunders > > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > To: VollyNet > > Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating > > their jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If > > they dont then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > > > > >> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Do or do not. There is no try... > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >> > >>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>> they're wrong. > >> > >> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >> something > > halfway sane. > >> > >> Spot the cynic, eh? > >> > >> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > morons. > >> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >> not try). > >> > >> -- > >> Regards, > >> > >> Ed Hintz > >> ed@hintz.org > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> > >> ******************************************************************* > >> ** > >> * > >> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >> this message from your system. > >> > >> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >> ******************************************************************* > >> ** > >> * > >> ******** > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise**** > > ** ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 27 22:10:41 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Thu Oct 27 22:10:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision In-Reply-To: References: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , <1319692918.1767.6.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <1319706641.8273.18.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> I know this has come at a time when the focus is else where but we ignore it at our peril. If a brigade were to accept these new rules the CFO of that brigade could be appointed from out side that brigade (section 27 of the Act) and control who is in and who is out. On Thu, 2011-10-27 at 20:10 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > wow. this all makes me feel like saying 'hey hey one issue at a time'... > certainly all coming out.. > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:21:58 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The following is a quote from a letter received from the Fire Service > > Commission on the 4th November 2009 a copy was sent to the UFBA. > > > > ?Agreement of service. I have researched our register of Agreement of > > Service and have found no Agreement of Service for the Little River > > Brigade more recent than the 1976 version in your possession. This is > > consistent with my personal knowledge that volunteer brigades in > > Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions did not take up the opportunity > > offered in 2002-2004 to enter new Agreement of Service with the > > Commission? > > > > This statement shows that both the FSC and the UFBA know that all the > > brigades in the former Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions are not > > signed up to the present Model Agreement of Service. > > > > Why then is the present Model Agreement of Service exclusively referred > > to in the proposed Model Rules of Association when most of the brigades > > on the South Island are not signed up to them. Is it an attempt to > > introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth? > > > > I again urge all brigades to find out what their present Agreement of > > Service is and I say to the UFBA to sort out this mess before the > > conference. > > > > Geoff Marks > > > > On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 22:35 +1300, Marks Family wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://www.ufba.org.nz/news/ufba_news/ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz Thu Oct 27 22:49:36 2011 From: adam.knezovic at yahoo.co.nz (Adam Knezovic) Date: Thu Oct 27 22:49:58 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision In-Reply-To: <1319706641.8273.18.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> References: <1318412116.1877.0.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> , <1319692918.1767.6.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> <1319706641.8273.18.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Message-ID: <008d01cc948d$be5e4350$3b1ac9f0$@yahoo.co.nz> Rule 13.4 is there to do what they couldn?t do by consultation, remove the CFO from the brigade, and make the Area Manager the CFO. As CFO's are retired or retire, they wont be replaced (in my view) and instead the rule 13.4 will apply. According to this rule, an OIC will be appointed as per current composite stations, and that person shall be instilled with the powers of the CFO. He will be able to appoint members and be able to stand as Chair of the Committee. Thanks and regards -----Original Message----- From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Marks Family Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 10:11 p.m. To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz Subject: RE: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- I know this has come at a time when the focus is else where but we ignore it at our peril. If a brigade were to accept these new rules the CFO of that brigade could be appointed from out side that brigade (section 27 of the Act) and control who is in and who is out. On Thu, 2011-10-27 at 20:10 +1300, Tristan Saunders wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > wow. this all makes me feel like saying 'hey hey one issue at a time'... > certainly all coming out.. > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] ufba_invites_submissions_on_the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > From: jgmarks@xtra.co.nz > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:21:58 +1300 > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The following is a quote from a letter received from the Fire > > Service Commission on the 4th November 2009 a copy was sent to the UFBA. > > > > ?Agreement of service. I have researched our register of Agreement > > of Service and have found no Agreement of Service for the Little > > River Brigade more recent than the 1976 version in your possession. > > This is consistent with my personal knowledge that volunteer > > brigades in Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions did not take up > > the opportunity offered in 2002-2004 to enter new Agreement of > > Service with the Commission? > > > > This statement shows that both the FSC and the UFBA know that all > > the brigades in the former Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions > > are not signed up to the present Model Agreement of Service. > > > > Why then is the present Model Agreement of Service exclusively > > referred to in the proposed Model Rules of Association when most of > > the brigades on the South Island are not signed up to them. Is it an > > attempt to introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth? > > > > I again urge all brigades to find out what their present Agreement > > of Service is and I say to the UFBA to sort out this mess before the > > conference. > > > > Geoff Marks > > > > On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 22:35 +1300, Marks Family wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > > information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://www.ufba.org.nz/news/ufba_news/ufba_invites_submissions_on_ > > > the_proposed_model_rules_revision > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From aditozer at xtra.co.nz Thu Oct 27 23:12:01 2011 From: aditozer at xtra.co.nz (Ian Tozer) Date: Thu Oct 27 23:12:14 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <008501cc9487$593c1f70$0bb45e50$@yahoo.co.nz> References: <008501cc9487$593c1f70$0bb45e50$@yahoo.co.nz> Message-ID: <1319710321.43895.YahooMailNeo@web96112.mail.aue.yahoo.com> During the last 6 months I have been selling peanuts to bars, it is fun and has its perks. ? Funny meeting tonight in Napier doing some work and drinking amber liquid, one person in a group of bar owners?stated laughing?and stated?"You could sell ice to Eskimo's" ? Being PC for two seconds?I reminded him they are Inuit tribes people. ? Then?I pointed out that selling ice to them was a bad business plan. ? Convince them to cut and polish the ice they stand on into 2 cm cubes.? Show them how to market it to every country as Pure?Ice Solid State. ? Now set them up with the machinery, warehouses, distribution network, shipping systems, marketing organisations. ? Sell them that lot as a Consultant wanting nothing more than a percentage of profit and what you make on the kit they buy. ? Now you is making money, stuff selling them ice, that is silly.? And you are taking the PISS to everyone instead of out of them. ? Equate that to all the ruckus going on here. ? What we have is ice that some people think others will buy, with no concept that it tastes bad and they already have a lot of it. ? So don't tell them the ice is bad and walk away. ? Come up with a broad sweeping, solid system that everyone can swalllow, that is actually going to work, is affordable and saves money at the same time. ? We all know the actual stuff we do and the operational paramaters we live with are an evolving beast that works well.? We all know the rest needs a shake up. ? Maybe the volunteers and paid staff singing from the same songbook would get results beyond eithers expectations. ? But for heavens sake, stop selling them ice. ? Give them something that makes everyone profit from the experience. ? My 1 cent because I ain't an occifer and can't afford more as a voli. ? Ian (not so secret agent) From tony at sutorius.org Fri Oct 28 17:02:29 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Oct 28 17:02:41 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org> <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org> <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org> <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org> <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org> <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org> <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org> <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz> <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org> <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz> <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz> <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz> Message-ID: <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org> Hi all, Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, potentially all at once:- 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated with the Service 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their outcome. One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. Tony On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi everyone > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to volunteer > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades will > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. Our > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our DVSA > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the impending > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut backs. > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the commission > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra work > load etc etc etc > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of New > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of the > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by that > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in any > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be reached, > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, whose > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable conclusion, > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine the > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about 10 > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved and > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the Ministers > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about 2 > years. > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious thought, I > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if you > have any questions > > Regards > > Tony Swain > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Adam, > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > strategy. > > Tony > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Tony, >> >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > said >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > they >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. >> >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > power >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was >> solidarity. >> >> Thanks and regards >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. >> To: VollyNet >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >> >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hi Adam, >> >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating > in >> loose concert would be formidable. >> >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? >> >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see > no >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. >> >> T. >> >> >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > wrote: >> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond >>> with any action. >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as >>> then you will be picked off one by one. >>> >>> >>> Thanks and regards >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tristan Saunders >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM >>> To: VollyNet >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun >>> >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. >>> >>> >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. >>>> To: VollyNet >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action >>>> >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that >>>>> they're wrong. >>>> >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do >>>> something >>> halfway sane. >>>> >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? >>>> >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National >> morons. >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to >>>> not try). >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed Hintz >>>> ed@hintz.org >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>>> >>>> >>>> ********************************************************************* >>>> * >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete >>>> this message from your system. >>>> >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." >>>> ********************************************************************* >>>> * >>>> ******** >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>>> >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >>> >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion >> only unless specifically stated otherwise >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles >> >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 28 17:39:34 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Fri Oct 28 17:39:55 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org> References: <5CEF32E2-2E60-4FA3-B10C-91710AEC1DCA@sutorius.org>, , <8BA91007-A1F5-42EE-A933-338C71E223B6@sutorius.org>, , <399F6E4A-98B6-4A40-AA54-27110AC30734@sutorius.org>, , <37FC69CA-0897-4163-8F13-42672834016E@sutorius.org>, , <79C814FD-4443-4D22-9F05-F8F150C01A5F@sutorius.org>, <1319510016.95214.YahooMailNeo@web112513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <8957E199-5437-4A0D-A80B-6CAE216777B1@sutorius.org>, <4EA626E1.6090101@p00le.net> <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org> Message-ID: 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved and > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tony at sutorius.org Fri Oct 28 21:49:46 2011 From: tony at sutorius.org (Tony Sutorius) Date: Fri Oct 28 21:49:53 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] NEWS: Paul Baxter on Monday's announcements Message-ID: <05C70B87-6AA3-409F-A6BD-E9DEDC65AC5E@sutorius.org> The restructure team has concluded the submissions collation, analysis and recommended substantial changes to Chief Executive on the original proposal in light the feedback received. These changes have been approved and will be announced on Monday in the final decisions document. We are aware that there are many people very anxious about what the final decisions might entail. Some have suggested that it is a ?foregone conclusion? and no real consultation has occurred. This is simply not correct, and as is often the case, not based on any fact. I want to ensure you that the team has diligently taken on this mammoth task. 144 submissions were received, some very thoughtful, detailed and helpful to the team. Some of the proposals we have confirmed are: ? An increase into direct funding of Volunteer Support in excess of $0.9 million dollars. ? Fire Risk Management and Volunteer Support resources all placed into the Area level to be closer to the community and brigades. ? New specialist resources to improve our management of Fleet, Property, Human Resources will be placed in each Region, freeing up Area Manager and other roles time to concentrate on fire risk management and support of our people and brigades. Some of the areas where we have made major changes to the original proposal are: ? District Volunteer Support Administrator roles ? Region Safety and Wellbeing Coordinator roles ? Resourcing model for FRMOs and VSOs ? Business Support positions now allocated through a resourcing model ? Slow and consultative implementation will occur I am confident that these changes will address many of the concerns that exist, and will demonstrate the team?s authenticity in the process. The final decisions paper will be available on the Regional Restructure web pages on Monday, and this will be alerted by ?whole country email? with a link to the document. I also encourage you to use the discussion board facility to ask us questions or raise issues. You will be sure of a reply based on fact and honesty, something clearly lacking in other forums. Paul Baxter From k.and.h at xtra.co.nz Sat Oct 29 11:01:35 2011 From: k.and.h at xtra.co.nz (kerry and heather) Date: Sat Oct 29 11:01:56 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org> Message-ID: <8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2> VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a volly station that does 300 plus calls. Plus other support roles on the line. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristan Saunders" To: "VollyNet" Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > From: tony@sutorius.org > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi all, > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > potentially all at once:- > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > with the Service > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > outcome. > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > Tony > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > volunteer > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > will > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > Our > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our > > DVSA > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > impending > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > backs. > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > commission > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > work > > load etc etc etc > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > New > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > the > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > that > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > any > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > reached, > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > whose > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > conclusion, > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > the > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > 10 > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > and > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the > > Ministers > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > 2 > > years. > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > thought, I > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > you > > have any questions > > > > Regards > > > > Tony Swain > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Adam, > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > power... > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > and > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > how) > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > it, > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > been a > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > problem > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > recent > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > strategy. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Tony, > >> > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > said > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > they > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > >> > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > power > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > >> and > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > >> stop > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > >> solidarity. > >> > >> Thanks and regards > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > >> To: VollyNet > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >> > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Hi Adam, > >> > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > >> operating > > in > >> loose concert would be formidable. > >> > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > >> risk > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > >> > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > >> see > > no > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > >> can, > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > >> > >> T. > >> > >> > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > wrote: > >> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > >>> with any action. > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks and regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > >>> To: VollyNet > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > >>> > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > >>>> To: VollyNet > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > >>>> > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > >>>>> they're wrong. > >>>> > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > >>>> something > >>> halfway sane. > >>>> > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > >>>> > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > >> morons. > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > >>>> not try). > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Ed Hintz > >>>> ed@hintz.org > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > >>>> this message from your system. > >>>> > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > >>>> ********************************************************************* > >>>> * > >>>> ******** > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>>> > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >>> > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > >> opinion > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > >> > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise ---------------------------------------------------------------- MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From tds_4 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:04:55 2011 From: tds_4 at hotmail.com (Tristan Saunders) Date: Sat Oct 29 15:05:12 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun In-Reply-To: <8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2> References: <4EA62923.10006@hintz.org>, , , , , , , , <005501cc945e$4e161b10$ea425130$@yahoo.co.nz>, , <1692E31F-9C1D-46A9-AB2B-7BEEC20AF882@sutorius.org>, , <005b01cc9463$601dca60$20595f20$@yahoo.co.nz>, , <916630D9-AE4B-4C67-B7ED-62E9203FD57@clear.net.nz>, , <000001cc946f$e06d1e30$a1475a90$@net.nz>, , <30EE94D5-94D1-469C-97CB-9AD00207A018@sutorius.org>, , <8B312686492A4301B354AC6B38158BAB@ferritsamdx2> Message-ID: sounds good. no sms, faip, fire safety, school visits in that area. Area manager will love it > From: k.and.h@xtra.co.nz > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:01:35 +1300 > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > VSO position contract in Tasman not being renewed. Admin support lost from a > volly station that does 300 plus calls. > Plus other support roles on the line. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tristan Saunders" > To: "VollyNet" > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 5:39 PM > Subject: RE: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > 3 FSO's from Hamilton told to reapply. Considering old 'Waikato' region had > 5, or was it only 4?...... (not including 'Bay'). > > Potential reduction to two? Yeah right.. > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > From: tony@sutorius.org > > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:02:29 +1300 > > To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi all, > > > > Thanks Tony... I think that's a great suggestion, and one I know you're > > painfully familiar with down there at Newlands. Hopefully other brigades > > can benefit from your experience; at least knowing the option exists. > > > > I've heard from a number of brigades around the country who are > > considering taking action if plans to cut their support resources firm up. > > I'm aware of three main strategies they are variously planning, > > potentially all at once:- > > > > 1. Politician-focused public / media campaigns aligned with the election > > > > 2. Formal complaint / dispute processes (along the lines Tony Swain has > > outlined), potentially involving the UFBA / other organisations associated > > with the Service > > > > 3. "Industrial" action, similar to what the career staff are currently > > doing (various plans: no SMS, limits on radio messages etc) > > > > I have been surprised to learn about "3" in particular; there is at least > > one substantial group of brigades already committed to pulling this > > trigger very soon if cuts affecting them are confirmed as they expect they > > will be during the coming week, with a second group of similar size in > > another part of the country also set to follow suit if that is their > > outcome. > > > > One thing none of us knows yet is whether our own brigades will be > > substantively affected by proposed cuts. The document that should make > > that (somewhat) clear will be released on Monday. > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 19:15, Tony S wrote: > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi everyone > > > I have been keeping a keen eye on recent events concerning cuts to > > > volunteer > > > support etc. I have a plan, in that if followed by a number of brigades > > > will > > > result is some serious soul searching by those making such decisions. > > > Our > > > brigade is affected in that our VSO will become even busier and our > > > DVSA > > > position will be lost. If your brigade feels strongly against the > > > impending > > > cuts, then think about adopting the following plan. > > > > > > 1. Call a special meeting of your brigade. The agenda being the cut > > > backs. > > > 2. Discuss the cut backs and propose a motion, second and vote, that the > > > brigade is against any such cut backs, then formally advise the > > > commission > > > that your brigade is disputing the cut backs on the grounds of extra > > > work > > > load etc etc etc > > > 3. Invoke section 34 (5) Fire Service Act 1975 > > > > > > In the event of any dispute arising between- > > > (a) the Commission, or any employee or employees of the Commission; and > > > (b) any volunteer fire brigade or any volunteer member or members of any > > > volunteer fire brigade,- the Commission shall give written notice of the > > > circumstances of the dispute to the United Fire Brigades' Association of > > > New > > > Zealand and shall not make any final decision regarding the settling of > > > the > > > dispute until it has considered the representations, if any, made by > > > that > > > Association in the matter within a reasonable time: provided that, in > > > any > > > case where a mutually acceptable settlement of a dispute cannot be > > > reached, > > > either party may refer the matter for consideration by the Minister, > > > whose > > > decision shall be final. (Minister- Minister of Internal Affairs) > > > > > > By formally entering into a dispute, there must be an agreeable > > > conclusion, > > > the UFBA must become involved, and if it can't be resolved it will go > > > right up top to the minister. If say 50 brigades decided to adopt this > > > action, I'm sure the Minister would start to ask questions and imagine > > > the > > > stock pile of paperwork that would be created. > > > > > > Speaking from experience, I have been right through this process about > > > 10 > > > years ago when the fire service planned to close our station. To my > > > knowledge it was the only time a dispute couldn't be mutually resolved > > > and > > > was referred to the Minister. The dispute was resolved by the > > > Ministers > > > suggestion that our brigade should remain. This whole process took about > > > 2 > > > years. > > > > > > By all means lobby your local MPs but give this plan some serious > > > thought, I > > > believe it could make a difference. Please feel free to contact me if > > > you > > > have any questions > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Tony Swain > > > 0274 468495 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > > [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:30 p.m. > > > To: adam.knezovic@yahoo.co.nz; VollyNet > > > Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > > > > > VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > > For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Adam, > > > > > > I think it is completely incorrect that volunteer brigades have no > > > power... > > > in many ways their power is in fact greater than that of paid staff, as > > > their cross-party political credibility, community support, local mana > > > and > > > practical unreplaceability are immutable. > > > > > > The fact though is that they haven't chosen (or perhaps haven't known > > > how) > > > to exercise the power they do have. For want of a flasher way of putting > > > it, > > > I guess they simply haven't been pissed off enough, and perhaps have > > > been a > > > little complacent in thinking these issues are not their individual > > > problem > > > and "the UFBA will sort it out for us". > > > > > > The NZPFU by contrast have used their power extensively, but arguably > > > without achieving much political traction on the national stage in > > > recent > > > times. I'd suggest this is due to some quite serious flaws in their > > > strategy. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27/10/2011, at 17:46, "Adam Knezovic" > > > wrote: > > > > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ > > >> For information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi Tony, > > >> > > >> I am curious as to why then up to now, that individual brigades haven't > > > said > > >> no to the increased workloads that have been placed upon them, and why > > > they > > >> haven't stopped the support staff level from being reduced. > > >> > > >> It is because they have no power really. I feel anyway. The collective > > > power > > >> of all of NZ volley brigades is immense, I am an ex-paid Firefighter, > > >> and > > >> have knowledge of the NZPFU tactics when we fought a 9 year battle to > > >> stop > > >> restructuring and job losses, and the one thing that stood out was > > >> solidarity. > > >> > > >> Thanks and regards > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > >> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Tony Sutorius > > >> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:31 p.m. > > >> To: VollyNet > > >> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > >> > > >> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Hi Adam, > > >> > > >> Just as a matter of strategy I would disagree with your analysis. An > > >> individual brigade with a strong case and a sound strategy can carry > > >> significant weight, even at a national level. A dozen brigades > > >> operating > > > in > > >> loose concert would be formidable. > > >> > > >> As long a they conduct themselves sensibly and honorably I see little > > >> risk > > >> to them... how do you "pick off" a volunteer fire brigade? > > >> > > >> I think if the UFBA steps into a co-ordinating role, great.... but I > > >> see > > > no > > >> reason to view that as essential, or a necessary first step. Brigades > > >> can, > > >> and perhaps should, trust their own judgement. > > >> > > >> T. > > >> > > >> > > >> On 27/10/2011, at 17:10, "Adam Knezovic" > > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> My suggestion is any course of action be taken via the UFBA as our > > >>> collective representative. If the UFBA is not willing to be the > > >>> "representative", perhaps create another entity to utilise and respond > > >>> with any action. > > >>> One thing is for sure, it needs to be a collective not individual as > > >>> then you will be picked off one by one. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Thanks and regards > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > >>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mike Harrison > > >>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 5:02 p.m. > > >>> To: VollyNet > > >>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] It has begun > > >>> > > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> Then its time we stood up and took action ourselves. Once the jobs go > > >>> it will be impossible to get them back and we are on the receiving end > > >>> so it will directly affect volunteer brigades. > > >>> Suggestions on the appropriate course of action would be good Regards > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Tristan Saunders > > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 3:58 PM > > >>> To: VollyNet > > >>> Subject: [VollyNet] It has begun > > >>> > > >>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> Black Watch (FSO, VSO, Training) just received a letter stating their > > >>> jobs cease 11th November unless sign up to new contract. If they dont > > >>> then have to wait to apply for new 'restructured' jobs.. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> From: Paul.Butler@rbnz.govt.nz > > >>>> To: vollynet@vollynet.org.nz > > >>>> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:10:11 +1300 > > >>>> Subject: RE: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > >>>> > > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>> Do or do not. There is no try... > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz > > >>>> [mailto:vollynet-bounces@vollynet.org.nz] On Behalf Of Edmund Hintz > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2011 4:13 p.m. > > >>>> To: VollyNet > > >>>> Subject: Re: [VollyNet] Volunteer protest action > > >>>> > > >>>> VOLLYNET : OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTING IN NZ For > > >>>> information and help see www.vollynet.org.nz > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>> On 10/25/11 4:02 PM, Matthew Poole wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Yeah, they're REALLY willing to listen to people who say that > > >>>>> they're wrong. > > >>>> > > >>>> Conservative govs are the worst at this. Jesus told them they're > > >>>> right, and that's the end of it, 'cause Jesus kicks a** eh dontcha > > >>>> know (refer Team America:World Police). At least the liberal govs > > >>>> pretend to listen to you and make reassuring noises before they > > >>>> cheerfully vote against your interests in favor of those with big > > >>>> money. And every once in a while they can surprise you and do > > >>>> something > > >>> halfway sane. > > >>>> > > >>>> Spot the cynic, eh? > > >>>> > > >>>> All that said, who knows. Maybe mass unrest from FFs (paid over > > >>>> wages, volly over services) would have some affect on the National > > >> morons. > > >>>> Doubt it, but it can't hurt to try (and it can sure as hell hurt to > > >>>> not try). > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Regards, > > >>>> > > >>>> Ed Hintz > > >>>> ed@hintz.org > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >>>> > > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ********************************************************************* > > >>>> * > > >>>> ******** "This message (and any files transmitted with it) are > > >>>> confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the > > >>>> intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and delete > > >>>> this message from your system. > > >>>> > > >>>> This message does not necessarily reflect the views of the Reserve > > >>>> Bank of New Zealand. If the recipient has any concerns about the > > >>>> content of this message they should seek alternative confirmation > > >>>> from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand." > > >>>> ********************************************************************* > > >>>> * > > >>>> ******** > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >>>> > > >>>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >>>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >>> > > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >>> > > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >>> > > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >>> > > >>> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >>> opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of personal > > >> opinion > > >> only unless specifically stated otherwise > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > >> > > >> ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > >> personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > MEET THE COMMUNITY! Visit www.vollynet.org.nz/profiles > > ALL posts to VollyNet should be considered statements of > personal opinion only unless specifically stated otherwise From jgmarks at xtra.co.nz Sat Oct 29 15:53:02 2011 From: jgmarks at xtra.co.nz (Marks Family) Date: Sat Oct 29 15:53:21 2011 Subject: [VollyNet] Proposed Model Rules with comments by Geoff Marks Message-ID: <1319856782.1731.10.camel@marks-G41MT-S2P> Cometary: sorry - in this format the this is not the easiest reading any one who wants a copy in Word or Open Office format let me know - Geoff NOTES ON THE PROPOSED AGREEMENT OF SERVICE: It was sent first to the Fire Service commission for approval before being sent to the wider membership. I looks like it has been doctored by the FSC to suit them. It was published on the UFBA website after submissions for remits were due in. I provides back doors for the FSC to gain greater control over our affairs. It is trying to introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth for those brigades not signed up to it i.e. most of the south island IN OTHER WORDS THE UFBA HAVE SOLD US DOWN THE RIVER!!!! 1. OBJECTS AND INTRODUCTION 1.1 OBJECTS To advance volunteer fire brigades within New Zealand in the following ways: 1.1.1 To carry out the functions of a fire brigade and to achieve efficiency in organisation, staffing, equipment, discipline and training to meet the requirements and expectations of the Community for protection from fire and disaster relief and to be able to apply those skills and resources to assist at other types of emergency. Comment: Meeting the requirements and expectations of the Community is a big ask without some sort of limitation i.e. where will the resources come from for medical call outs. This should be an AIM 1.1.2 To become registered with the Commission as a volunteer fire brigade or fire brigade auxiliary unit. 1.1.3 To undertake fire safety activities, the prevention, suppression and extinction of fire, the protection of life and property, rescue and attendance at emergencies and other events to render humanitarian assistance in accordance with the requirements of the Agreement of Service. 1.1.4 To provide education, training and research in the activities of the fire brigade. Comment: This I Presume is to allow us to run our cadet programme 1.1.5 To promote the safety and welfare of its Members in the course of their duties within the Brigade. 1.2 INTRODUCTION 1.2.1 The Brigade Rules provide governance for ?a group of persons organised and trained for the prevention, suppression, and extinction of fires,? as defined by the Act: people who have chosen to join a volunteer fire brigade, some of which are the oldest and most respected organisations in New Zealand. These brigades have given their community an essential service for more than 150 years, at the same time providing their members with unique opportunities for fellowship, camaraderie and social activities. 1.2.2 From earliest days, Brigades have had their own Rules to regulate their activities and membership. For decades Volunteer Fire Brigades in New Zealand have had a collective Model Rules of Association. These have now been reviewed and replaced by these Brigade Rules which: Comment: Under the present rules each Brigade would have to pass these new rules at an AGM or a special meeting. Those Brigades operating on an older Agreement of Service will not need to kowtow to the FSC. a) administer the Fire Brigade; b) manage its affairs properly, democratically and with transparency; c) provide for the welfare of all members; d) ensure the brigade is properly organised, disciplined and operationally ready; e) prepare the Brigade to meet community expectations in times of any emergency; f) help sustain membership to retain strength in numbers, skills and experience; g) maintain social activities; h) recognise Brigade achievements; and i) celebrate individuals? volunteer service. 1.2.3 Brigade Rules do not manage the Brigade?s operational matters: these are provided for in: a) the Fire Service Act 1975; b) operational instructions issued pursuant to the Act by the National Commander, in particular those functions, duties, powers and responsibilities of Chief Fire Officers included in sections 28 and 28A of the Act; c) the Brigade?s Agreement for Service entered into under Section 34 (a) of the Act; and Comment: The following is a quote from a letter received from the Fire Service Commission on the 4th November 2009 a copy was sent to the UFBA. ?Agreement of service. I have researched our register of Agreement of Service and have found no Agreement of Service for the Little River Brigade more recent than the 1976 version in your possession. This is consistent with my personal knowledge that volunteer brigades in Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions did not take up the opportunity offered in 2002-2004 to enter new Agreement of Service with the Commission? This statement shows that both the FSC and the UFBA know that all the brigades in the former Southern and Transalpine Fire Regions are not signed up to the present Model Agreement of Service. Why then is the present Model Agreement of Service exclusively referred to in the proposed Model Rules of Association when most of the brigades on the South Island are not signed up to them. Is it an attempt to introduce the Model Agreement of Service by stealth? d) any standing orders applying specifically to this Brigade. 1.2.4 Brigade Rules are subject to and do not supersede, negate or take precedence over statutory enactments such as: Human Rights Act 1993; Harassment Act 1997; Privacy Act 1993; or Charities Act 2005; 1.2.5 In the case of Composite Fire Brigades, these Rules apply only to those Members comprising the volunteer component of the Brigade. 1.2.6 These Rules are intended through fair and transparent management to provide effective support for the Chief Fire Officer in the execution of his duties. 1.2.7 In summary, these Rules aim to make the Brigade the best ?club? in town, with a progressive outlook reflecting present-day volunteerism in New Zealand which Generation X and Y find just as attractive as other age-groups, sharing enjoyment, activities and fulfilment in fellowship and community service. 2. MEMBER COMMITMENTS 2.1 Membership of the Brigade means committing: 2.1.1 To observe these Rules so that the Brigade is well managed and properly administered, enabling members to better reach best practice in operational efficiency, staffing, equipment, discipline and training to meet the requirements of the Chief Fire Officer and community at